Hypnotic Pattern

[theridion]

I have questions on the mechanics of the spell hypnotic pattern. I have a friend running a wizard in a campain, and we were trying to figure out how this works. i left my PHB in my car, so ignore any little details i get wrong

Anyway, it effects 2d4+1 hd of creature/level. it lasts concentration +2 rounds.

now, my question is, well, how does thsi spell work? creatures that fail their save stand motionless or "stunned"? are they in like a waking sleep? can you coup de grace or attack them once or repeatedly without waking them?

the spell reads, "standing headlesss of all else" or something to that effect. but then it goes on to say, "as effected by hypnotism"... but you can't do anything like suggest to them if they are "hypnotized", as per the spell.

so, what state are the victims in?
what qualifications are in place for them to gain benefits to their saves vs. their spell, gain additional saves, or be automatically broken from the spell?

so far, we're using this spell as a 2d4+1 HD sleep spell that lasts concentration +2 rounds. This seems fairly balanced in theory with the sleep spell, and maybe this is how it works, but we're really unsure because of the references to the "Hypnotism" spell. also, there's the argument of who's going to stay hypnotized if people take a couple whacks at them? and then, can you coup de grace someone that's standing their helpless? can they be awoken like sleep by companions?

 

[kreynolds]

They suffer all the effects of the Hypnotism spell but you cannot give them suggestions. Look up the Hypnotism spell to see what penalties they suffer.

 

[theridion]

i understand that aspect, but you didn't fully comprehend my question.

hypnotism doesn't include "heedless of all else" as stayed for hypnotic pattern. hypnotism also has certain cases in which the spell effects are negated, such as, "obvious threats", which is not stated in hypnotic pattern.

in essence, if you hold up all the hypnotism rules, you have hypnotic pattern which is a weak hypnotism. it has a bigger range, but it lacks the suggestion ability.

 

[kreynolds]

in essence, if you hold up all the hypnotism rules, you have hypnotic pattern which is a weak hypnotism. it has a bigger range, but it lacks the suggestion ability.

Exactly. That's how it is supposed to work, IMO. It makes sense too. When you take one spell and increase the range but only bump it up one level, you lose at least one aspect of the previous spell. In this case, you can effect more targets but some of the functions of the spell are gone, such as suggestion.

Take magic missle for example. If you increase the normal maximum damage of the spell, you need to bump up the level of the new spell. If you don't bump it up high enough, you then need to take away at least one aspect of the original spell. For instance, if you double the damage and don't want to bump the spell level up too high, then you would probably require an attack roll instead of allowing an automatic hit. You might even allow a save.

So, hypnotic pattern balances itself out because you effect more targets but you cannot give sugguestions. Make sense? I did fully comprehend your question. I probably just didn't explain it very clearly.

 

[Slack'alot]

I'm still not satisfied. The operative statement in the spell says, " Affected creatures gaze at the lights, heedless of all else, acting as if they are affected by hypnotism." The problem with this statement is that creatures affected by hypnotism are not heedless of all else. Creatures affected by hypnotism break out of the spell if someone draws a sword, they get an additional save if someone moves behind them.

There are several problems with simply saying hypnotic pattern is an expanded hypnotism. Hypnotic pattern is an illusion spell, hypnotism is an enchantment spell. Hypnotic pattern is a pattern of swirling lights, hypnotism is a gestering and incantation of the spell caster.

It makes sense that creatures under the affect of hypnotism can't be threatened, they are looking at the caster as he swings a watch in front of them. Hypnotic pattern says they are fasinated by swirling lights, heedless of all else. It doesn't follow from that description that if someone were to draw a sword they would then disregard the swirling lights.

Hypnotic pattern is poorly worded to say the least. If one is to take the "heedless of all else" as the operative phrase, the spell is very useful. If one is to take the "acting as if affected by hypnotism' as the operative phrase the spell has very little use.

 

[theridion]

agreed, hopefully someone who knows how this spell should work will post!

 

[kreynolds]

From the description of Hypnotic Pattern:

acting as if they are affected by hypnotism

No insult intended, but, what part of this don't you guys get? Seems pretty simple to me. I take that quote to mean the hypnotic pattern doesn't make the targeted creature to behave as if they are affected by a watermellon cheeseburger.

 

[Sigma]

I agree with kreynolds, seems clear to me. If the spell was supposed to make people helpless, stunned, or otherwise incapaciated, it would use one of the game terms for those conditions to state that. 'Heedless of all else' is just flavor text, it does not have a game equivalent like stunned, unconcious, or helpless do.

 

[Slack'alot]

what part of this don't you guys get? Seems pretty simple to me

Humor me then. Explain the 'heedless of all else' because if a person is acting as if under the effects of hypnotism then they are certainly not heedless of all else.

I tend to think that the part that says 'acting as if they are affected by hypnotism' as being a descriptive statement to describe how the targets looks not a statement of how they are affected.

I feel that the literal description of the spell is contradictory and needs to be interpeted. Is anyone else using this spell?

 

[Nellisir]

Humor me then. Explain the 'heedless of all else' because if a person is acting as if under the effects of hypnotism then they are certainly not heedless of all else.

I tend to think that the part that says 'acting as if they are affected by hypnotism' as being a descriptive statement to describe how the targets looks not a statement of how they are affected.

I feel that the literal description of the spell is contradictory and needs to be interpeted. Is anyone else using this spell?

I'm using it quite a bit. It's useful since it can potentially affect up to 18 HD of creatures, or one 18 HD creature (if the only thing, or the weakest thing in the area of effect). A few monsters with this spell ability at will can really play havok on the party. Also, there's no verbal component (for wizards & sorcerers)

Anyways..."heedless of all else" simply replaces "stare blankly at you" and "rapt attention" as flavortext. They are not blinded, stunned, or otherwise disabled. They may be caught "flat-footed" at the DM's discretion by an unanticipated attack (sneak attack, invisible attacker, invisible spellcaster). "affected by hypnotism" is not flavor text, since hypnotism is italicized, clearly indicating the spell and its attendent effects (note they are not "hypnotized", they are "affected by hypnotism".

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but it seems to be consensus. You can certainly continue to treat it as an improved sleep spell, but you might consider changing it to a third level spell, since it no longer requires a verbal component, affects additional Hit Dice of creatures, and removes the HD limitation of sleep (will not affect creatures over 5HD).

Cheers
Nell.