hypothetical class balance discussion

[Kisanji Arael]

I guess this goes here. I don't know. Anyway:

You have four classes. Ignore everything about them except what is presented below.

All four classes have a strong fortitude save and a d10 hit die. They are all designed to be close-range melee fighters. (edit: though not necessarily meat-shields)

(edit: Assume all skills are cross-class, or that all skills are class skills, for these purposes. Either way, there is no imbalance due to skill selection)

One class has a strong reflex save.
One has a strong will save.
Whereas the other 3 have skill points equal to 2+Int, one class has 4+Int.
One class gains +2 Hp/level, which can exceed the limits of the d10.

To what extent are these classes balanced?

 

[FireLance]

I have no mathematical basis for the following, but I'd say a good Will save is about as valuable as a good Reflex save.

I'd also say that a good Reflex save is about as valuable as two extra hit points per level (effectively the equivalent of d12 hit dice and free Improved Toughness).

The skill points equivalence is trickier, but overall I'd say that two extra skill points are generally less useful than two extra hit points in a fight, but allows the character to be more useful out of combat, especially if the class has a broad selection of class skills. It may be slightly weaker in a more combat-oriented campaign, but probably not noticably so.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Whereas the other 3 have skill points equal to 2+Int, one class has 4+Int.

This is the one that really jumps out at me. Having extra skill points is only good if you have good skills to spend the skill points on. If the 4+Int class has an improved skill list, then it would probably be balanced with the rest, IMO.

 

[irdeggman]

I think there is an incomplete comparison being made here.

Since you've added in something that is clearly a class feature (the +2 hp/level that can exceed the d10 limit). That leaves a question as to what the other "class features are".

Also a class designed to be a melee fighter with a good reflex save makes little sense. Reflex saves are usually used for ranged defense (like area effect spells, which are clearly not designed for use in melee).

 

[Li Shenron]

I think they are quite balanced with each other for the average game.

I actually think that in our games, where out-of-combat activity is quite important (but no HR is used to give more skills), the +2 skill points is more worth, since it can open up the equivalent of 2 new abilities in your array.

I think of these in terms of for instance:

- Tumble, or being able to move freely around enemies
- Diplomacy, or being able to strongly influence the direction of the story
- Climb, or being able to bypass obstacles based on heights
- Use Magic Device, or being able to use scrolls, wands and other items
- Listen, or being able to avoid ambush and surprise rounds against you

Furthermore this means +100% skill points...

edit: Reading the OP better, I think instead the winner might be the hit point bonus, it is equal to almost +40%! For some reason, I thought I read "HD d12", in which case I think it would be more balanced.

 

[green slime]

Not quite:

For an individual character, the +2 bonus on average isn't a gain of almost 40%...Although it has the potential to be. Primarily because the character could have a better than average Con. In this case, the benefit of the additional hit points decreases percentage wise, even though the total hp increases.

The same applies to the Skill points. Most of my Fighter-type characters I give 14 in Intelligence. Because I like access to Expertise, and the additional cost of 1 point in a point buy is weighed up by the gain of an additional Skill Point. Which means the class with +2 skill points isn't increasing my skill point pool per level with 100%, but "merely" 50%.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

I think there is an incomplete comparison being made here.

Since you've added in something that is clearly a class feature (the +2 hp/level that can exceed the d10 limit). That leaves a question as to what the other "class features are".

Also a class designed to be a melee fighter with a good reflex save makes little sense. Reflex saves are usually used for ranged defense (like area effect spells, which are clearly not designed for use in melee).

It is an incomplete comparison. It's hypothetical, and will only maybe be used in my future house rules. However, I'm still interested in your opinion of whether 2 extra hit points (you can be racy and call it a d12, or be technical and call it a +4 bonus to constitution for the purposes of hit point gain/level) is balanced with the others.

Interesting point about the reflex save. But is it balanced against a strong will save?

A second question based off your responses, if you all are interested. What do each of these do for the classes' roles? Obviously, more Hp lead to more meat shield, and more skill points means that a character might be useful in a town (or even swimming through a moat in a dungeon). What about the others? What inherent changes do these add to classes.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

This is the one that really jumps out at me. Having extra skill points is only good if you have good skills to spend the skill points on. If the 4+Int class has an improved skill list, then it would probably be balanced with the rest, IMO.

Well (and I'll add this to the OP), the only balanced way to make assumptions, since I didn't specify, is to assume either that all skills are cross class or that all skills are class skills.

 

[green slime]

Looking at this even further:

The Reflex save is a waste: Reflex saves usually target hp, and fighters have lots of them, at least on a CR-equivalent scale.

Skill points: Are really very dependant on what skills are available. In general though, the 3.x system is unappreciative of skills, which can easily be made redundant through smart magical item acquisition.

Bonus hp: Although you can never have enough hp, hp isn't the only way to down a fighter.

Good Will saves: IMO, is the best choice. A fighter-type is hard pressed to increase his Will saves, and the consequences of being held or worse dominated, are pretty nasty. Furthermore, the entire party suffers when the tank gets taken out in one round.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Not quite:

For an individual character, the +2 bonus on average isn't a gain of almost 40%...Although it has the potential to be. Primarily because the character could have a better than average Con. In this case, the benefit of the additional hit points decreases percentage wise, even though the total hp increases.

The same applies to the Skill points. Most of my Fighter-type characters I give 14 in Intelligence. Because I like access to Expertise, and the additional cost of 1 point in a point buy is weighed up by the gain of an additional Skill Point. Which means the class with +2 skill points isn't increasing my skill point pool per level with 100%, but "merely" 50%.

Indeed. A front-line fighter is very likely to have a high Constitution, and reasonably likely to have a well-rounded Intelligence, due to his general lack of skill points. On the contrary, he is less likely to have a high wisdom to help his Will save, and his Dexterity will probably be hindered by armor, adding to the importance of a decent reflex save. Hmmm... this will be interesting to watch.

Bed time now. Will check upon waking.