I Am Puzzled

[innerdude]

Right, but most people don't go into McD's asking for a burger with, saaaay, pepperoni slices.

As for the inertia idea, it does factor in, but IME, those guys tend not to modify their D&D games with mechanisms from other RPG systems. The one exception I've seen to that is importing things from closely related systems. So for example, in our group, I and others have imported 3.X mechanisms from AE, Pathfinder and other cousins, but that's about as far as those guys go.

I guess the other variable is the sunk cost fallacy, and perceived opportunity cost. "I've already spent $xxx.xx on D&D-related material; if I switch systems, all that goes out the window."

This gets exacerbated by the fact that choosing a new system necessarily includes a time and resource commitment that precludes using those same resources elsewhere. Is it really worth spending the time and hours to master HERO, when a fourth of that time could be spent houseruling D&D, and the other 3/4 creating GM story material?

And for me, I know too that there was a definite fear of the unknown.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Bill91 wrote:

I can easily see that. Having experience with both Hero and many editions of D&D, I have more of a feeling of real progress in D&D games as I level up. Unless I'm using a power framework like a multipower, adding a significant power in Hero can take quite a while as I save points from session to session. The D&D increases are regular and, as of 3e, pretty frequent. D&D also allows a lot of customization by equipment that can change significantly in character with just a good couple of treasure hoards. I can do the same in Hero, but I'm largely redesigning the character to do so. That may be a plus to some, but redesigning in Hero feels different to me from adding new gear. The character continuity just doesn't feel the same.​

I agree; I think there's something to be said for having big regular easily recognisable chunks.

But that being said I personally have no trouble with the smaller, more granular advancement one gets from HERO and GURPS. But it does seem to make characters grow differently. For instance in the Champions game I'm currently in I was saving up XP with the intent of buying a big new power. I'd saved about 30XP. That's a lot in Champions. Then I realised there were other things I needed and went and spent the lot on buying down some disads and upping my character's PRE. A lot of XP spent but no major changes in power. Characters in HERO change more slowly, they tend to broaden their abilities rather than max out some narrow field. This has a lot of appeal for me.

 

[Hyper-Man]

I guess the other variable is the sunk cost fallacy, and perceived opportunity cost. "I've already spent $xxx.xx on D&D-related material; if I switch systems, all that goes out the window."

This gets exacerbated by the fact that choosing a new system necessarily includes a time and resource commitment that precludes using those same resources elsewhere. Is it really worth spending the time and hours to master HERO, when a fourth of that time could be spent houseruling D&D, and the other 3/4 creating GM story material?

...

If you only play fantasy probably not. But IF you want to occasionaly play different genres of game THEN it's a great investment since by the time you and your group master the combat engine of HERO (not nearly as difficult as the powers portion of character creation) you can then plug in ANY genre 'skin' and go. Space Opera? Check! Post Apokolyptic? Check! Urban Fantasy? Check! and of course Supers? Check!! ect...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This gets exacerbated by the fact that choosing a new system necessarily includes a time and resource commitment that precludes using those same resources elsewhere. Is it really worth spending the time and hours to master HERO, when a fourth of that time could be spent houseruling D&D, and the other 3/4 creating GM story material?

I would say it depends on what you're wanting to change. If I may...

When Champions (HERO) first hit the stands, 3Ed was over a decade in the future. So of you wanted your Mage to throw balls of acid instead of fire, you were...out of luck with D&D. Ditto if you wanted to play a martial artist who wasn't a monk. Or a non-Druidic shape changer. Or if you wanted to design your own spells, presumably balanced with those from the official sources. Or even a guy with wings.

HERO (and other modular RPGs) lets you create heroes that don't necessarily fit into the rigid structures found within D&D. It lets you create spells and powers never seen in the Forgotten Realms.

Etc.

All of which can be a breath of fresh air to your game. If, like me, you've been playing D&D since the mid-70s, you can get a little bit...jaded...by the options it offers. I've played all the PHB races & classes of the first 3 editions plus some of the ones published in 3.x splatbooks and campaign sourcebooks. Love the game though I do, not all of my FRPG character concepts fit nicely within D&D's confines.

Now, I certainly could have spent time HRing this and that- I do, as I've said- to get D&D to work the way I want in a particular game. But at some point in the process, you look down and realize that your changes take up more space than the core books...and it is highly unlikely that anyone but you is going to want to read all these changes.


IOW, you're better off trying a different game.

 

[delericho]

If you only play fantasy probably not. But IF you want to occasionaly play different genres of game THEN it's a great investment since by the time you and your group master the combat engine of HERO (not nearly as difficult as the powers portion of character creation) you can then plug in ANY genre 'skin' and go. Space Opera? Check! Post Apokolyptic? Check! Urban Fantasy? Check! and of course Supers? Check!! ect...

Of course, there are also d20 versions of all of those, too. They're not necessarily good, but they exist, and indeed can be tweaked fairly easily.

And that's a pretty key thing, for me at least: I know D&D (specifically 3.5e) inside and out by now, and my willingness to learn new systems is extremely limited at this point - I have a fairly small amount of time available for "gaming stuff", so time spent learning a new system eats into time spent prepping my next game, or time spent actually playing, or...

What that means is that if you give me a d20 system that kinda-sorta approximates what I want from the game or an entirely bespoke system that exactly represents what I want from the game (if the latter were even possible), I'd almost certainly choose the d20 version. Because that way I can get up and playing pretty much right away - the "good enough" now trumps the "perfect" later.

(Incidentally, that's also why I never upgraded from 3.5e to Pathfinder - although I consider that the latter is, on balance, the better game, it's not "better enough" to persuade me to switch. And, for the same reason, 5e very much has an uphill struggle to supplant 3.5e as my D&D of choice.)

 

[Umbran]

Now, I certainly could have spent time HRing this and that- I do, as I've said- to get D&D to work the way I want in a particular game. But at some point in the process, you look down and realize that your changes take up more space than the core books...and it is highly unlikely that anyone but you is going to want to read all these changes.


IOW, you're better off trying a different game.

Yes, well, the goalposts seem to have moved a bit. We started talking about why someone might choose to change one single subsystem - a specific subsystem, at that. Now we are talking about people who make tons of house rules, in many different subsystems.

I think there are folks who just swap out one subsystem (say, putting in point-buy character generation and advancement, or a mana-point magic system), and there are folks who go to town on a system like Dr. Frankenstein. And I don't think they are the same people, in general, or doing it for the same reasons.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

FWIW, I didn't start off talking about single-subsystem swaps, just the process in general.

IME, different subsystem swaps have different levels of..."inextractibility". That's why- as much as I preferred HERO's system of martial combat to D&D's- I didn't make the change.

Different systems also mean different things to the game. Point-buy stats are an almost meaningless change. Point-based magic, though, essentially nukes the Vancian magic system, and all the implications that goes with it.

 

[gamerprinter]

From my perspective, I've never seen any edition of D&D that was a complete solution (no added/replaced rules necessary) out of the box. Its why so many groups have house rules. The idea that I can buy an edition of D&D and everything works within itself to accomplish all the variety necessary to depict a game that works best for my particular group - doesn't exist. I always change, add things, replace options in every edition of D&D, and now Pathfinder.

I am puzzled that you (Danny Alcatraz) would believe that any out of the box RPG is going to be complete in of itself, and not require some level of tweaking to work best for you or your gaming group. Perhaps its true for you, but I've never found it so, not in 35+ years of playing the game.

As an aside, I've never used a Mac, all my computer experience is using PCs, thus I don't buy computer equipment as one brand to handle everything I need. Being modular is the way I buy everything. So the video card, pointing device, operating system, software applications, monitor, and every other component, I buy based on what I believe is best for me for each individual component. Because I also want the best price for these individual components, I often purchase them separately from different stores and distributors, and build the whole myself once I have all the parts.

When I create maps, I mostly rely on one software, but often my maps are generated using 3D modeling, 3D rendering, texture mapping, hand-drawn elements that are digitally scanned, using photo resources, and much of this work is done by different applications. So even in creating maps, I generally don't use one software only to do the job, rather 3 or more different applications created by different companies are used to create various aspects to my maps.

So the same philosophy in building component based RPGs is the same philosophy I use to build me a computer, or create a map. One solution doesn't exist to accomplish any the tasks I need for any activity that I participate in. I use what is best for each individual step, and each may be completely different entities.

I will clarify by saying those things that don't matter much to me, I don't spend as much thought to 'componentize' and might buy "as is" to serve me. My car, for example, is a means of transportation for me, and I otherwise don't give much thought to it, so I generally buy a vehicle and not try to improve it with various add-ons, like everything else I do put the effort in. Things that matter, I do buy piece-meal and build to suit my tastes. So my 'philosophy' doesn't apply to everything in my life, only those things that really matter to me.

I am puzzled that you'd find the way I do things as puzzling?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I am puzzled that you (Danny Alcatraz) would believe that any out of the box RPG is going to be complete in of itself, and not require some level of tweaking to work best for you or your gaming group. Perhaps its true for you, but I've never found it so, not in 35+ years of playing the game.

You misunderstand me, somewhat.* I don't eschew tweaking- not in D&D, at least- I just don't cross-pollinate subsystems from one RPG to the other. I also haven't made any long-term systemic tweaks- as in, there is no tweak I have made that I apply universally to all my campaigns.

When I tweak, I generally try to make the subsystem "more itself" as opposed to something else entirely. So if I'm tweaking 3.X monks, I look at altering their weapon proficiencies, maybe boosting BAB or HP, or making variants based on splatbooks (Psionic monks, Incarnum monks) as opposed to remaking them with another RPG's archetype as the core.

That's why my Energy Drain tweak is the way it is. The game already had a subsystem describing a loss of vitality due to environmental effects. I merely recycled that system to describe the effects of negative energy based attacks without having to go through the bookkeeping nightmare of losing levels. It's still potential lethal, it's still scary to the players, but it easier to deal with in almost every way. And, most importantly, its effects on the afflicted characters still looks like you're draining energy.




* The only RPG system I haven't made tweaks to is HERO.

 

[gamerprinter]

You misunderstand me, somewhat.* I don't eschew tweaking- not in D&D, at least- I just don't cross-pollinate subsystems from one RPG to the other. I also haven't made any long-term systemic tweaks- as in, there is no tweak I have made that I apply universally to all my campaigns.

Since I generally don't look at too many game systems, I never cross-polinate subsystems from on system to another - I'm not even familiar with too many other game systems than D&D. Instead I reinvent the wheel, and create all my own subsystems and add it to D&D/PF if I need something that the system doesn't already have. It might even be possible that another game system has its own usable subsystem that I could have adopted, but since I wasn't even aware of that system's subsystem, I only ever create my own new mechanics.

My Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) needed a different death mechanic/reincarnation subsystem, a karma subsystem, and an honor mechanic (that PF didn't have at the time that I needed it, even though they have one now), so I invented these from scratch and tucked it into my setting.

One of the authors to Kaidan supplements has adopted some mechanics from other 3PP content and adapted it to Kaidan, but then those mechanics are 3PP PF, so its not really borrowing from a different system, rather a different setting. We've used magical tattoo mechanics from Inkantations by 4 Winds Gaming for PF. We tweaked those rules, and added some additional mechanics. We will also be borrowing Scott Gable's Kitsune and adapted his kitsune race rules for Kaidan. Everything else we invent for ourselves.