D&D 5E I believe the Greyhawk Campaign setting was a missed opportunity for Wizards of the Coast.

[catenwolde]

Kids and their newfangled Greyhawk - everybody knows that Mystara is where the real action is!

Newfangled? You jest, certainly?

Okay, sure, Greyhawk is technically older than anything else, being Gygax's world ... but in MY world of D&D, Greyhawk remained something rather remote that was used as official background for spells and magic items, while Mystara was introduced in 1980 (my freshman year of high school) with The Isle of Dread. I never even knew about the original 1980 Greyhawk portfolio until much later, and the 1984 Greyhawk boxed set was something that my brother bought when I went off to university. Perhaps because Mystara was left less defined (until the GAZ's) during those crucial years in the 80's, or perhaps because it became so associated with Basic D&D, I've always thought that Mystara felt older than the later, more polished presentation of Greyhawk. <shrug>

 

[Henrix]

Okay, sure, Greyhawk is technically older than anything else, being Gygax's world ... but in MY world of D&D, Greyhawk remained something rather remote that was used as official background for spells and magic items, while Mystara was introduced in 1980 (my freshman year of high school) with The Isle of Dread. I never even knew about the original 1980 Greyhawk portfolio until much later, and the 1984 Greyhawk boxed set was something that my brother bought when I went off to university. Perhaps because Mystara was left less defined (until the GAZ's) during those crucial years in the 80's, or perhaps because it became so associated with Basic D&D, I've always thought that Mystara felt older than the later, more polished presentation of Greyhawk. <shrug>

Well then, we started at the same time, but for me Mystara was never anything I took notice of. My first DM was an OD&D player converted to AD&D, and had a lot of old magazines and such.
The release of the new Basic, Isle of Dread, and consequently Mystara, passed me by almost entirely, being seen around here as a simplified version of the game.

 

[SilverfireSage]

So why not let the designers focus on Greyhawk as the default setting and let Ed Greenwood and his crew focus on doing Forgotten Realms? I don't have to think about the brand in this case because I'm sure most people who bought Hoard of the Dragon Queen, would have done so no matter what world you have it in.

You have can have both settings working side by side. Older Forgotten Realms is what's popular, not the new stuff. Brand recognition is only good for those who liked the new direction and I'm afraid it weren't many.

You're still looking at this from an internet grognard perspective. R.A. Salvatore, as hated as he is, still tops the charts when it comes to fantasy. When I go to Barnes and Noble or Hastings, I don't see massive sections of books about Greyhawk, I see sections of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms has board games, video games, comics, you name it. It's by far, and it's really not even close, the most popular fantasy setting (apart from Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings) so I can see why they would want to set their first few adventures there. This edition isn't just to bring old gamers back into the fold, but to bring in new ones as well.

Also a good point to note is that technically the base game doesn't have a default setting. They reference everyone and everything in the PH and DMG, including Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun. IT's just that the first few adventures happen to be set there, because of the brand recognition.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I know people who still never touched 2nd edition who game in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, but I do keep hearing this. What is this old-school feel people talk about?

I'll try to briefly identify what I think are the connections I see:

• Simplified class design: the classes have a straightforward construction (with a little variation, also straightforward)
• Stripped down combat (even though one can add in some nice extra bits through the DMG) with the best bits from other editions added in as specific class features
• The old way of doing spells (sure, the cantrips idea is new, and there is no bonus spells with ability scores--super smart--and there is concentration, and there are new classes that do things differently... but the cleric and wizard are back!)
• Tables! Random tables!
• A certain aesthetic of the game that brings me a certain je ne sais quoi

Seriously, the two games I immediately thought of running were Temple of Elemental Evil (Greyhawk, CY 573) or the Scrolls of Hyskosa (Ravenloft) campaign. And I think that they would work great with limited changes.

(I did consider changing 1/2-orcs to something more 1st edition...)

 

[SkidAce]

I completely disagree that Greyhawk is a good choice. Greyhawk has brand recognition only within the hardcore tabletop D&D community.

Meanwhile, Forgotten Realms has at least two media properties that reach a significantly wider audience:

1. Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter games for the video gamer audience
2. R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt novels for fantasy reader audience

Those two properties alone make using FR a much better choice, especially for attempting to get new players.

While I miss the fun of having Greyhawk front and center, this ^ is entirely true.

 

[Nebulous]

I dunno, I probably in the minority for saying this, but I'll say it anyway, and I'm not trying to incite any argument, I'm just stating my opinion.

I just find both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms as generic fantasy worlds that are about the same except for the names. FR canon doesn't matter anything to me, so they're both fully interchangeable. I can plop down a duchy from GH right next to Icewind Dale and no one I game with would notice or care. But as someone else mentioned, WotC is pushing name recognition, and the Realms has bestseller NY Times books, and Greyhawk does not, so it makes sense.

I could pretend Mordenkainen is from Baldur's Gate, Bigby from Calimshan, and Tenser from Kara-Tur and the end result for my game is going to be the same. For that matter I could swap out Bane for Iuz and just go with that.

I guess problems arise when you have players who really enjoy the lore and history of established canon and don't want it messed with, it ruins the verisimilitude.

 

[Henry]

Thing for me is that I really don't miss Greyhawk that much for two reasons:

1. Gary's gone. After he left TSR, we never really had a stable core of designers who knew Oerth like he did working there. Everyone from Carl Sargent on down just didnt give the same feel as Gary's GH did to me. Now, it's best IMHO to leave it for the fans to noodle with unofficially.

2. It has a spiritual successor to me in Paizo's Golarion. Golarion has mixes of cultures, downed ancient spaceships, slaver nations, devil worshippers, red cloaked assassins from hidden jungle regions, world cataclysms, deities running nations, and one city in the center of it all with world spanning trade, with numerous houses/guilds vying for control, same as Greyhawk. Little wonder since Erik Mona was a Greyhawk Uberfan from back in the day. Golarion gives me all the Greyhawk flavor I ever wanter streaming out of its pores. Hell, their current adventure path is Expedition to the Barrier Peaks writ large, and their next is essentially Against the Giants! (minus the drow behind it all, and if they were I'd clap for joy.)

 

[Sailor Moon]

I completely disagree that Greyhawk is a good choice. Greyhawk has brand recognition only within the hardcore tabletop D&D community.

Meanwhile, Forgotten Realms has at least two media properties that reach a significantly wider audience:

1. Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter games for the video gamer audience
2. R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt novels for fantasy reader audience

Those two properties alone make using FR a much better choice, especially for attempting to get new players.

What does all this exactly have to do with making FR the default setting?

Your statement is flawed in many areas.

Let's break it down.

A: Baldur's Gate game out ages ago so it's not suddenly going to bring in all these new players and besides, if you had both settings running side by side then who would know the difference or even care if they are new to the game.

B: Neverwinter is an MMO that won't necessarily bring in many new gamers. Ir's been out for a while now and again the same logic still applies. New gamers aren't going to know the difference and sure as hell aren't going to base their decision to play on whether or not FR is the default. The PHB even seems to imply that there are numerous worlds in the D&D universe.

Drizzt novels have been out for ages as well. Whether or not you make FR the default is not going to be the deciding factor of whether or not they start playing the game.

It's foolish marketing because this could mean they are trying to gain a market through an old computer game, a novel, and an MMo that's really only doing anything cause it's free to play.

There is nothing there that really gives a good reason to make FR the default catch all setting.

 

[SilverfireSage]

What does all this exactly have to do with making FR the default setting?

Your statement is flawed in many areas.

Let's break it down.

A: Baldur's Gate game out ages ago so it's not suddenly going to bring in all these new players and besides, if you had both settings running side by side then who would know the difference or even care if they are new to the game.

There have been three rereleases of these games on iPad and PC that were high on the charts. These games are immensely popular, and far more popular than D and D has been.

B: Neverwinter is an MMO that won't necessarily bring in many new gamers. Ir's been out for a while now and again the same logic still applies. New gamers aren't going to know the difference and sure as hell aren't going to base their decision to play on whether or not FR is the default. The PHB even seems to imply that there are numerous worlds in the D&D universe.



Drizzt novels have been out for ages as well. Whether or not you make FR the default is not going to be the deciding factor of whether or not they start playing the game.

It's foolish marketing because this could mean they are trying to gain a market through an old computer game, a novel, and an MMo that's really only doing anything cause it's free to play.

There is nothing there that really gives a good reason to make FR the default catch all setting.

The newest Drizzt book came out in 2012 and was a new York times best seller. Say what you will but forgotten realms is by far the most popular and it isn't close. It's really their only option for bringing in a wider audience apart from licensing a bigger franchise.

 

[Mercurius]

I haven't read through the thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone has already said, but I think there's a disconnect with many people about the broad appeal of Greyhawk, which in my opinion is significantly less than the Forgotten Realms. Fans of Greyhawk tend to be older and grew up on Gygaxian D&D. This is not to say that I think WotC shouldn't offer a nice, perhaps even deluxe, commemorative hardcover or box set for Greyhawk, but I think they made the right decision, at least in terms of not making Greyhawk the default setting. The Realms simply has broader appeal, in my opinion.