I didn't like Bluffside. But I didn't read it, either!

[2WS-Steve]

This sort of debate is kind of funny but it actually makes sense. Publishers get dinged for too much white space in their products (in fact, a horrible number of reviews actually assign a category to it) and to compensate they pack in the info then get dinged for readability. My guess is that there's simply two camps out there.

Personally I'll pay the extra extra money for extra pages and lower text density and I don't have any problem with the Mongoose or FFG layouts. Ease of use makes a real difference to me. But I can always sympathize with the packing the pages technique given the reviews I've seen online.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

THG:

I did not mean to be insulting, but it appeared to me that the design was unprofessional, and it still does. The three column format was an absolute eyesore. The map was bland and an irritating sepia tone, and while the blandness may be a good thing for reasons you stated, it does not get me excited about adventuring in Bluffside. Additionally, I think the city (separated into so many islands) is simply too weird to fit into my campaign. What I want in a city is one that looks like Geanavue (mapwise) and reads like Freiburg, Ruins of Zhentil Keep or Lankhmar (1e).

I think Mongoose has too much white space, and I don't like the 3 column "packed" layout of Bluffside, so it's not like there are two separate camps, IMO, but rather "easy to read" should always take precedence over the amount of content. I'm not trying to hold Mongoose up as a pillar of professional design, but rather as a bare-bones minimum of what other d20 publishers should aspire to.

There's a reason nobody else (to my knowledge) is doing 3 column books---they are not easy to read and a potential turn-off to customers. 3 columns are definitely not a standard or widely accepted format in professional gaming industry publications (or any other publication that I can think of), which led me to question the professionalism of your designer (who may have only been following your orders---I simply can't see an *experienced* professional not objecting to the layout you went with). I think it was a poor design choice; others may disagree, YMMV, and all that. Sorry if my comments seemed like an attack--they were just my opinion, expressed as plainly as possible, without venom or rancor. If it was an attack piece, I wouldn't have altered the title of this thread to let people know I hadn't really read Bluffside, and my complaints were from a layout/design perspective.

Maybe a box set (like Freiburg) may have been in order (with anything cut for space provided as free web enhancements), with a DM and Player map, DMs guide and player's guide to the city... Freiburg was a gorgeous, detailed city set, one of the best ever made for any system. Every building was detailed with who owned it, how much it rented/sold for, who was in it, etc. Sure, the DM will always want to change some of these, but it's sure nice to have all that detail as a skeleton to build from.

 

[thg jim]

Since I was the main writer in charge of Bluffside, I may as well jump in on this thread. First of all, I find it hard to lend much credence to any review of a product that has not been read by the reviewer. As I read all of the reviews through EN World and many other sites, I have found out that I can quickly throw out any that are written about a product from how it looks only. I am sorry, but I wish that you would read the book and try to use it. Then, your comments would be valuable, to both the gaming community and our company.

As for Bluffside, I can let you in on how the layout how we placed the information came about. I started playing D&D in about 1978 in high school. Quickly, I became the group DM and worked my butt off every week to come up with some sort of adventure or place to "be" for my players. I used many of the available modules and supplements, many from 3rd party publishers. If you wanted to see how a small village could look and be valuable to a DM, you had to look no farther than Homlett (sp?). Well detailed, interesting NPCs, and actual stuff going on so that you could use it for a long time. But, what was always lacking was a real good city.

Oh, I used published cities over the years. Its just that, IMO, they all were just shells. You got a lot of fiction, plenty of background on the city, a few NPCs, a map (some of which were very cool), and a little dab of an adventure, maybe. But there were no details. You can take any of your favorite cities that came out in the past twenty years of so that were considered to be good (I am not judging any that have been produced in the current d20 market) and take a real good look at them. Put your NPCs there and you can give them the flavor and such and then you have to start creating the real details of the city. Of course, such cities as Waterdeep put out additional supplements to give them more detail, but your original $30 or $40 didnt' get you a real living city.

But then, it was much easier to make NPCs. If you tell me that you have a 10th level 1st edition Fighter, I can pretty much have you roll combat without tables. Why? Because a 10th level fighter was, more or less, like every other 10th level fighter. Not so with 3rd Edition. Just spend some time actually making something as "simple" as a 10th level NPC fighter now. You have hundreds of combinations that will make them all unique and very hard to create easily.

I wanted to make Bluffside ready to run in the world of 3rd Editon and d20. To do this takes a lot of detail. We have it in Bluffside. Take it, look it over real well, like a good GM should, and put your PCs in it. I bet that you will find that the information contained in the book is easier than you think to put your fingers on. Give it a try. Then come back and we will all be the better for your review.

Jim Govreau
COO Thunderhead Games
Head Writer - Bluffside

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Sadly, content is not nearly as important as packaging (ask anyone in Hollywood). I pick up things based on covers first, then flip through them, looking for maps, pictures and any interesting tidbits that may pop out at me.

Bad Cover = Product is never even picked up, except to poke fun at it ("Hey, get a load out of this crap!").

Good Cover = Product is immediately snatched up and brandished about wildly ("OMG! This is so cool!").

Bad Interior Art and/or Bad Layout = Product is put down immediately and I shake my head in disgust at what the hell the publisher was thinking.

Good Interior Art and/or Layout = Product is then either bought on impulse or given over to further reading.

Bad Text = If a product passes the first two checks, it's got me intrigued enough to sit down and read it, or I just freak out and buy it without thoroughly reading it (impulse buy based on the initial "coolness factor"--especially likely to occur if I'm in a hurry or its received great advance publicity).

Good Text = Product is bought. Gamer goes home happy (but probably later than they wanted)!

So here is my take on Bluffside from a purely *cosmetic* point of view (which naturally does not factor in your writing skills):

1) Bluffside's cover = Acceptable, but not exciting.

2) Bluffside Interior Art: Same as above.

3) Bluffside's Layout: 3 column format too cluttered/busy, causes eyestrain, can't focus on anything.

4) Bluffside's Map: Sepia tone (to imply age?) irritating. City (hand?) drawn in brownish/red not detailed enough to arouse my interest. By contrast, I bought Geanavue almost entirely because of its ingenious, dual-sided full color map.

5) Bluffside's Text: Haven't been able to get into it because of the way too busy 3 column format. Might be good, might not. There is certainly a LOT of information given, which clearly shows how much work was put into it. The problem is it would require a lot of time to sit down and read the book in any detail, trying to adapt my brain to the busy 3 column format. Time is a luxury few of us have--as is money. I don't impulse buy things that don't blow me away with their cosmetic coolness factor right off the bat. So I have to read 'em--if I think they might be worthwhile, if I have the time, and if I don't devote my gaming dollars to cooler looking products in the meantime. $25 is generally too steep for an impulse buy.

6) Bluffside's Originality: I think the 6 island "cities with a city" idea is very creative but its strangeness might make it hard to fit into existing campaigns, at least for me. I am nervous about buying anything TOO different from "normal." Normal places I can recycle and reuse elsewhere, but offbeat places have much less recycle value, as every player immediately knows where they are and it kills some of the "magic." I am also nervous about "Carl the Gray Ooze" and the polymorphed Frost Dragon getting sloshed at the bar... These kinds of things, to me, smack of irreverant, "Hackmaster" type humor or High Fantasy stereotypes. I run grittier, edgier, darker games where such frivolousness has no place (not that we don't have a sense of humor, just that we prefer to impose ours on the game rather than the designers impose theirs on us).

With Freeport due out this week, I will probably buy it... If I don't, you'll hear me tell you why on these boards (unless its merely a matter of too much good d20 stuff out at once to buy it all)!

 

[Marion Poliquin]

I just bought Bluffside. I was hooked right away because there is a lot to do and it shows - you don't have to dig through pages of filler to get to the interesting stuff, it jumps right in your face. I love how the NPCs are detailed at the end of the book and you can use the index to quickly find where the character is in the city.

My only thumbs down right now (I haven't read all that much yet)is that Todd Lockwood is apparently not credited.

 

[Crothian]

I've completed reading this. I'm not one who gets hung up on art and while the art is not anything I consider great, it did the job. The 3 column text is actually better then if it was two columns. I found it a fast read with the small columns. Overall, it's a good book. I would have liked more answers to the mysterious presented, but I imagine they are saving that either for the DM to do what he will or for future products. I'm not as thrilled about the new races. Personally, I like new races least of anything new presented. It's always hardiest to introduce new races to one's campaign world. There are plenty of little adventure hooks. My only complaint is that I'd like to have seen more of these tied together. I would have liked to seen more about the NPcs personality wise and such.

Overall, my opinion of the product is positive. It is the content we should base things one, no matter what Hollywood is doing.

 

[der_kluge]

Kaptain Kantrip, you've obviously developed your opinion about Bluffside, but it's an opinion stemming from absolute ignorance. If you had, in fact even passingly looked through the book you'd find that out of the 100+ NPCs, only maybe 3 are "goofy" like the ones you brought up. Out of 100 NPCs, 98 are just average people - commoners selling armor, or wizards studying in ancient libraries. In fact, I don't even think "Carl, The Gray Ooze" is even in there, the people that worship him are. But, there's a story behind that, and if you don't like him, don't use him - there are 120 other NPCs with plot hooks and places that you should be able to plop down into your own world.

Don't like the six cities? Redo the map, use Geanavue's map for all I care. Put the town in the middle of the arctic if that suits your fancy. Absolutely nothing stopping you from doing that.

But whatever you do, if your beef is with the layout, then fine - complain about the layout. But don't even dare say that the content is stupid, when you obviously have read none of it.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

But whatever you do, if your beef is with the layout, then fine - complain about the layout. But don't even dare say that the content is stupid, when you obviously have read none of it.

I said the inclusion of any such irreverant elements made me nervous... I didn't call them "stupid." Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Nightfall]

Hey I know I like it Klugie and I don't even OWN the silly thing! *Even though I'd put up like FIVE Reviews all giving them thumbs up on different websites! Hint, Hint, Hint...* Still Content good: Art not all that important. Course I LIKE good art, and great art does it even better!

Kap is just a hard man to please is all.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Kap is just a hard man to please is all.

He sure is, LOL. Listen, I really WANTED to like it, I WANTED to be able to buy it with confidence, but just got turned off by the cosmetics of it. I sure am getting ganged up on here by all the kajillion people involved with the project. Some have been cordial, others downright nasty, but either way, none seem to agree that there is a fundamental flaw in their product design. Not a huge surprise, but still, it seems like something to at least consider. In this day and age of people being rushed for time, short on cash, and facing a glutted market, snap decisions based on cosmetics are going to be more common than perhaps you realize. It's often been said that it doesn't matter what's inside the box, so much as what the box looks like. That's why we get 3D hologram boxes for crappy direct to video movies. That's why the studios get many of their "glowing" quotes from critics by outright bribery or from media outlets they own. Give the average joe a choice between something "sparkly" and something "useful but not fun to look at" and the joe picks the shiny one 9 times out of 10. It's the way most of the masses operate. Gamers are no exception. Believe it or not, I'm trying to be helpful!