I don't get high-level D&D (merged)

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I've found I like to DM high level adventures just as much as low and mid level. There really isn't that much difference, and you CAN run the same kinds of adventures. The only thing that changes is scope and importance.

When you get up to higher level, you can STILL have a murder mystery...but it would probably need to be something much much more elaborate and important that a simple kidnapping.

I've found that it also depends on the players...my players in one game, who are about 18th level now, don't use thier magic and powers for every little thing. They still travel on horses and foot...still use boats to cross the sea, and still are willing to ask around for information. Remember, Divinations CAN be blocked of misdirected. New powers for the PCs ALSO means that there are new powers for the NPCs and new ways for them to decieve the PCs.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

So why is this so treasured by veteran D&D players?

As a veteran D&D player, I'm proud to say that I have eliminated many of the issues you indicate (the current game I run is 30th Level with a magical inventory that would make the "typical" 10th Level group squirm).

Hmm - I think I disagree. Do you see James Bond solving dime store shoplifting mysteries? In that genre (as in D&D), the nature of the challenge tends to expand with the resourcefulness and experience of the law enforcement agent.

Of course, this is a completely out-of-genre example of someone that never solved dime-store shoplifting mysteries to begin with. Indeed, though, I do recall one 007 movie where he was "cut off" from most of his gadgets in order to "balance" him to a drug lord (obviously, drug lords are not as powerful as a nuclear arms syndicates, mad scientists, or gold/diamond smugglers).

 

[Flyspeck23]

High lvl D&D adventures scared the crap out of me until we slowly eased our way into them over time. Now, for me, they're just as easy and as much fun as any other type of D&D game.

Note "we slowly eased our way into them". That's so true. Go trough the levels too fast (or start at epic levels, for that matter), and you'll enter a world of pain. Getting used to all the possibilities (both as a DM and as a player) slowly, and you should be fine.
Really, it's simple as that

On the other hand, I prefer the mid-levels too. But only to some degree

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

One key thing you can do is have the legal system insist on non-magical proof. After all, your PC knows that his commune comes directly from his god, but how does the judge know that? You could be in poor standing with your god, and merely claiming that the commune says Lord X is a demon-worshipper for your own purposes.

Similarly, Detect Thoughts and Divination are only as valuable as the individual's trustworthyness. Commune costs XP; divination has a tendency to be cryptic, as well. Each of these spells has a counter-point to its usefulness.

If you feel strongly about it, you could take a note from earlier versions of D&D and make Commune useable only once every week, or month.

A smart NPC is aware of the tell-tale signs of someone trying to Detect Thoughts or Detect Evil, and can easily avoid them once recognized - not to mention low-level spells can block them. One thing important folk often do in my world is make people coming to see them wait a certain amount of time so that any pre-cast spells wear off by the time they speak to them. Casting spells without permission is tantamount to drawing a weapon on them; they can't know if you're casting Detect Thoughts or Slay Living. Maybe the laws provide for justifiable manslaughter in such cases. "he started casting a spell on me; how was I to know what he was up to? I had to defend myself!"

There are lots of ways to keep the mystery alive.

 

[diaglo]

...until we slowly eased our way into them over time. Now, for me, they're just as easy and as much fun as any other type of D&D game.

this is more of the key to enjoyable high level play, if you are used to normal play.

ease into it. slow advancement until the players and referee understand all of what it takes.

take small bites.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm only in midlevel play right now, but I can definitely run mystery stories even in the presence of communes and divinations. It's just that the scale of things changes.

.........

As long as your brain is suitably convoluted, I don't see why you couldn't continue doing mysteries into epic levels.

Our game (as detailed in the Story Hour) has progressed from 1st level in 2000 up to 22nd level here in 2003. I can safely say that high-level play can be different, but just as rewarding. I often find that when someone tells me that high-level play doesn't work, it usually is because it looks scary, not because the person in question has actually played it through.

A quick glance through Sepulchrave's story hour, PirateCat's story hour and mine will show you how high-level divinations are not the ultimate mystery solvers that they first appear to be. Especially against foes who are prepared to deal with such issues. In many cases, high-level divination spells, for example, are only as useful as the questions you know to ask. It's taken my players ten levels to determine that Fraz Urb'Luu, Demon Prince of Deception, has been messing with them.

Things like Teleport spells and other transportation magic changes the nature of the locales, but still has plenty of limitations. Weight and distance limitations are often a major problem, too. If you send your players through the adventure path modules, they will, around 10th level, obtain a Helm of Teleportation. That gives them 3 teleports a day. Trust me, the world doesn't end. Especially when incautious players turn certain items, abilities and spells into crutches. When they loose them, things get unpleasant.

If combats are running slowly at high levels, my experience has usually shown that this is due to the players and DM being overwhelmed by options, as much as anything else. When twenty-five spells are in operation across a group, it's a lot of work. But this is a function of play even at lower levels. There are plenty of ways to change this and there have been quite a few threads dedicated to that topic already.

By the same token, mystery plots are almost always targeted as being an example of why high-level play doesn't work. There have been discussion of this, too, and I'm not going to repeat my lengthy discussion of that topic in any real length here...other than to point out that the mystery can work, if it's sufficiently constructed, and that more importantly learn from Piratecat: knowing who commited the murder and being able to do something about it are two entirely different things. A quick review of the Eversink portion of Piratecat's story hour can show how having solved the mystery isn't the same as having brought the perpetrator to justice, and even then, it isn't always clear that you've found the right guy. Notice how PC even turns the party's own divining power against them, by some clever use of player expectations and some clever villian thinking.

However, the most important thing you have to face with respect to high-level play is that it is not the same as 1st-10th. Things are different. The players are no longer threatened by an orcish horde or a swarm of zombies. In a recent game of mine, the players slaughtered a Githyanki invasion force of 250 regular Githyanki, 15 half-dragon Gith, 4 Cr 16 spellcasters, 2 CR 16 Gith Blackguards and red dragon mounts, 2 CR 19 half-dragon Astral Dreadnaughts and four CR 20 undead Githyanki horrors. They went on to cut a swath through the Lich Queen's palace and eventually put her down once and for all. That doesn't mean they don't fear another Githyanki invasion....because they can't be everywhere at once, and the rest of the world is still composed of folks who are threatened by them. Sure, the paladin is level 20....but his sister is an Aristocrat 2, and most of her subjects are Commoner 1s or Expert 1s. It's not much good to be able to kill the whole Githyanki race, if they take half of the people you've ever known with you, first.

Plus, high-level play expands the playing field. As players rise to prominence, they attract the attention of powerful beings, both local and extraplanar. They discover there are still beings out in the world who can threaten them, and that they are now on a bigger playing field. At 1st level, you fight an orc in Iuz's army. At 10th level, you fight a member of the Lesser Boneheart, sent by Iuz with a squad of advanced orcs. At 20th level, you may encounter Iuz himself, or some members of the Greater Boneheart leading one of Iuz's armies. That style of play isn't for everyone, and you need to decide if you want to go that route.

Another thing to consider is that there is a world of difference between playing your way up the ladder from low-level to high-level, as opposed to deciding to create a character at 15th, 20th or 25th levels. In theory, they may seem the same, but in practice, you make many sub-optimal decisions along the way, because they make sense for the character or at that particular point in time.

I can't tell you if you'd enjoy high-level play or not. What I can tell you is that the depth of play doesn't change, unless you let it. And players earn those high-level abilities, and it's only fair to let them flex those muscles. Most players that I know enjoy flipping through the DMG and looking at the magic items and thinking "Oooohhh...sure wish I had one of those!" at some point. Those same players hear about fighting high-powered monsters and wonder what it would be like to face an advanced half-fire elemental paragon beholder, the Lich-Queen of the Githyanki, St. Kargoth the Death Knight or an advanced Psionic Roper of Legend. And that's not going to happen at low-level.

I do have some complaints about certain aspects of high-level play, but they're not the ones more commonly cited as problems with it.

 

[Rackhir]

Now, this may seem perfectly normal and fine to you, but to my mind it's counterproductive. Just because characters go up in level should be no reason for styles of adventure to become outmoded. You don't see this sort of thing in - I dare say - most RPGs or fantasy novels.

So why is this so treasured by veteran D&D players?

For one thing there is vastly more variety at higher levels. For low level characters (say 1st-3rd) it's hard to have much differentiation in functionality or operational capability. About the only real area of differentiation is in personality and background. For some people that's enough. Me I find it somewhat boring and tedious to run my 10,000th 1st level fighter. Simple common sense and game mechanics dictate that every low level wizard is going to have sleep and/or Magic Missile, and every cleric is going to be loaded up with pretty much only cures, for example.

High level characters already have accumulated different stories, one built up over years or months. They have different prestige classes, which generally branch the character into one area or another. Different magic items, which are often as much a part of the character as anything else. Elric just isn't quite Elric without Stormbringer after all. There's a far wider range of creatures that you can interact with, especially given templates that can vastly boost the abilities of "ineffective" creatures. You can operate on different planes of existances, each with their own rules and eviroments.

RE: RPGs/Books - I'm not sure what your point is with regards to other RPGs. Most tend to have similar problems/opportunities at "high" levels. As regards to novels, Either they tend to operate at one power level through out the book/series or they gain in power. The first doesn't exactly seem all that much fun to me and can work that way because that's how the author writes things. Everything is under the "DM's" control and the writer doesn't have to deal with 3-10 other minds with their own personalities and goals. The second more or less operates the way a campaign with normal advancement does. Rand at the begining of the "Wheel of Time Books" is insignificant compared to his powers about 5-6 books in.

 

[Hjorimir]

The natural inclination of players who come into power is to flaunt said power and start with the scry-and-fry routine. If you want to tone them down a bit use the same strategy against them. In short notice you will see more and more of their magic used for defensive purposes which subsequently reduces how much firepower they have.

As stated before, divinations are not the end all. The challenging part on the players is to know what questions really need to be asked. Half-truths can be difficult to discern.

Power is relative...there is always something bigger than you in the sea.

All of that being said, I'm moving my next campaign from D&D to HARP for something a bit more gritty.

 

[the Jester]

High-level adventures require more thought to pull off mysteries but it's by no means impossible. Something as simple as letting the pcs have the wrong name can really throw off a magical investigation. I'll echo the advice to ease into it slowly- you can't play a 21st-level character you make up on the spot with anything like the efficiency you can if you've worked him up since 1st level, and you prolly can't optimize a character as well if you've built him up since 1st level.

The nature of the game changes at high levels for sure- someone used Iuz as an example up above, and it's a good one. Low level characters can overthrow an evil temple; high level characters can overthrow an evil nation. Low level character can kill a tribe of enemies; high level characters can wipe out a species.

 

[Unseelie]

The natural inclination of players who come into power is to flaunt said power and start with the scry-and-fry routine. If you want to tone them down a bit use the same strategy against them. In short notice you will see more and more of their magic used for defensive purposes which subsequently reduces how much firepower they have.

As stated before, divinations are not the end all. The challenging part on the players is to know what questions really need to be asked. Half-truths can be difficult to discern.

Power is relative...there is always something bigger than you in the sea.

All of that being said, I'm moving my next campaign from D&D to HARP for something a bit more gritty.

Let me say, for the record, being scryed by the villain sucks... especially if they can then do something to you. In our current game we have recently been confronted with *someone* who can scry us (not without detection, but...) and then toss two Vrocks at us. We have no idea who this person is, or where they are. Yes, you can counter-scry, but that doesn't mean you'll learn anything if they're being careful (and likely, she can detect the counter-scry).