I don't get high-level D&D (merged)

[Nine Hands]

I'm running an epic level campaign, with a couple of tweaks to the system and with reasonable players, the game is pretty fun. Heck they attempted to teleport assault a priest of Kossuth and I killed two of the PCs in the first round or two. They did win in the end, but with the short durations of most buff spells and the fact that they attacked him earlier that day, left the encounter pretty much in thier hands. I hit them with a few surprises and the encounter was challenging.

I have no problem with the characters being able to solve most mundane mysteries, but even divination magic is not always correct. Even gods do not know everything.

I also agree with the people saying that using the scry and fry tactic against the party is a good idea. I do it to them once in a while to keep them on thier toes.

IMO the secret to high level campaign success is to alter the game system enough to suit your play style, weakening spells that really make the game less fun. Other than that give it a whirl, with a good GM and good players the game can be as refreshing as a low level game.

 

[Endur]

I like this idea.

One thing important folk often do in my world is make people coming to see them wait a certain amount of time so that any pre-cast spells wear off by the time they speak to them.

 

[Arravis]

Since 3rd edition came out I've run three long term games... one went from 1st level to 24th, the other from 1st level to 10th (was a short term one with a definate end), and the one I'm running now has gone up to 7th level and it's still going strong.
I had no trouble with the high level game at all... and honestly it's probably the most memorable and most fun one of all so far. I think the key to keeping it challenging is not letting the opponents slack... they have just as many resources (most of the time alot more actually) that the PC's do... and they're smart about using them. Remember, all these powers and spells are all known variables... everyone with any power knows of them and employs protections against them. For every power, spell, divination, etc, there is a counter for it, and you can bet that it'll be used. Mind Blank, for me, is a required spell of any caster that can cast it... it lasts all day and boy they'll use it (and it can be cast on others as I recall). Anyway, if you know what's out there as far as countermeasures... things balance themselves out quite nicely.

 

[Storminator]

[SNIP]

I also agree with the people saying that using the scry and fry tactic against the party is a good idea. I do it to them once in a while to keep them on thier toes.

I play in Nine Hands game, and one of the most memorable sequences, for me at least, was when we BSTed the bad guys, kicked their behinds, and teleported away.

DM: "You're being scried..."
Players: "Oh &@#$!"
DM : "He's teleporting in.."
Players: "We're teleporting out!"
DM: "You're being scried..."
Wizard: "I'm out of teleports..."
Bard: "I have a scroll..."
DM: "He's teleporting in..."
Out of character wizard player: "you know he's a sorcerer right? He can do this many more times..."
Bard: "I use the scroll!"
DM: "You're being scried..."

One of these teleports took us to a Thayan enclave, where one of the fighters turned the bag of holding inside out, dumping 5000 platinum on the ground, and shouted "I need a teleport scroll!" The BBEG teleported in and used his artifact, which turned the entire enclave into a wild magic zone.

Pretty heartpounding sequence.

PS

 

[Altalazar]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Getting rid of those spells is called: Playing LOW-LEVEL D&D.

It is true it takes a lot more creativity and skill to make a good high-level game, but then, if you have taken the PCs all the way there, that can make it more enjoyable as things shift - it adds new life to a game that perhaps had gotten repetitive. New challenges, the likes of which low to mid level parties can only dream of.

They decide the fate of whole kingdoms. Kings and Emperors ask, politely, for favors. Or the PCs visit their wrath upon those that don't. It is an entirely different level. If things like orcs are seen, it is because they are part of an army of tem million orcs that must be dealt with.

It is the cusp of the epic - where worlds rise and fall, where empires are born and die, all according to the success or failure of the PCs. It is NOT for the faint of heart. Perhaps the kingdom to be protected is the PCs' own - that which they have carefully built over many game-years or even game-decades, starting with a tiny castle built so long ago with party funds...

You just have to get into that spirit and mind-set and stop basing adventures off of silly little land or sea-treks where players are railroaded into encounters because they have few options. It allows the DM to get freer with the villains and their plans - no need to hold back! Be as devious as you can, because no matter what you come up with, near epic PCs will likely be able to do SOMETHING about it.

These are the tales of song!

 

[Crothian]

I like High level D&D, but I did limit the use of teleports. I built it into the setting so that the only way to get teleports or Planeshift is to either be a high level cleric of the good of travel or join the Wayfare'r guild.

But the easist way has been that none of the players are playing wizards or sorcerers.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As a DM, you need to know what the party can do. If they can divine, don't make the cusp of the plot finding the identity fo the BBEG. Make it proving the identity, tracking him down, or perhaps finding out why they're the BBEG. If they can teleport, don't plan encounters on the road. You need to play to your party, you can't expect them to bow to your conniving like they did at low-levels. You also have to expect them to be able to change the world around them. They really can't be bossed around much anymore....

But in the same way that high-level characters don't meet orcs traveling the roads, low-level characters can't slay a necromancer's army or destroy the city where the BBEG has his headquarters or travel to Hell to destroy the soul of the ancient evil once and for all....

There are things that are difficult to do at high level, but there are just as many that are difficult to do at low-level, and no one seems to hate playing that...

I find DMing high level adventures to be fun. The PC's have resoruces. They challenge *me*, for once, to think of ways around it, to take it into account, and to make it fun nonetheless. Now that I can't use some big monster to threaten them, it's a bigger challenge.

Also, on a final note, every strategy has a counter-strategy. Every scry spell can be foiled with an illusion, every attack foiled with buffs, every teleport foiled with expectations.

 

[Urbannen]

CCamfield's problem seems to be with magic level, not character level. Is there really a problem with the characters being 16th level fighters and rogues fighting with masterwork weapons? The problem is access to spells and magic items. The age-old suggestion of requiring one level of NPC for every level of spellcaster would deal with this. Also double the cost of all magic items. And find some more good non-spellcasting classes in independent products. Voilà. You can still play the characters to high levels, but the magic doesn't necessarily rewrite every strategy.

 

[der_kluge]

The fundamental problem with trying to make high-level D&D low-magic is that it disproportionately skews all the CRs UP. So, if you take a 15th level party from a "low magic" setting, and transport them to Forgotten Realms, they will be smoked in no time.
Oh sure, they could still lay some smack down on low level things, but through a few iron golems, or a demon or two their way, and they're gonna get killed.

Reworking D&D into low magic is much, much more than just revising all the spells. It is a fundamentally different game.

And I think people have a problem with high level D&D because there really is no basis for it in movies. I would contend that most characters in LoTR, are probably less than about 7th level. When was the last time you saw Gandalf toss around wishes and greater teleports? Even Gandalf relies on his sword, and has to ride a horse to get from one place to another. I haven't seen RotK yet, but the most powerful, visible thing I've seen him throw is in FotR where he fights the Balrog - something akin to Protection from Evil, and then something like a Resilient Sphere.

To play high level D&D, you have to understand that it is a much different game than low-level D&D. As Monte Cook says - you should just embrace the spells as they are. The system works, but as players become more powerful, simple plots no longer become a challenge for them. You are forced to rethink your idea of what makes a combat challenging, and what makes a mystery challenging for them. There are numerous threads here about running a high level campaign successfully, with tons of great ideas.

The current game I am running is high level. The party is 10th, and they started at 9th. We'll finish when they're 20th. Feel free to read my story hour (link in my .sig).

 

[Phoenix_Knightwind]

Okay, long-time geek chiming in.

The number one rule of the game is that you are in control and may tweak the rules or even break them to your heart's content. Doing this to suit your style or taste is the whole idea. The game should be yours and your groups, to heck with what other think.

Now, that said: The unwritten number one rule is that if the DM is going to play god in his world, then he better know it well. Tweaking rules to enhance your joy is a major tenant of the game. Tweaking rules to make it easier on you to run is lazy. You should be able to deal with your players' PCs capabilities without resorting to ruling them out or countering them 100% of the time. Admittedly, this is a difficult task given the amount you need to read and absorb, keep up with in game and manage. This is more difficult as you get older and your players get smarter, or at least more familiar with the rules. The ability to creatively challenge your players is second only to the ability to think quickly for a DM. No one is a perfect DM, but the more I read these boards, the more I think many DMs don't put out the effort that is expected of them by the role as defined in the game.

High levels, when hard won by your players from a campaign that you have invested your heart in, should be amongst the most rewarding sessions you play. Yes, they are more difficult to run. yes, they take longer. However, when written and run correctly, no one really cares. My players all have jobs and families and can only spend a few hours a week on gaming, but no one seems to mind that it takes us three weeks to finish a climactic battle between 3 groups (Shadovar arch wizards, Yuan-ti psions and clerics, and the party of heroes) over the control of an artifact to awaken an ancient godling that can destroy the world. This is because that the battle is the pay-off to months of mystery solving, monster bashing and political intrigue that they have waded through to get to this point. It's the pay-off of the story, but most importantly, it's the pay-off for the time they have invested in their characters to get to the point that they can productively participate in a huge battle where the fate of the world hangs in the balance and show off what they have accomplished for their time.

If you and your players are adverse to high-level play, that's fine, but I think you're playing the wrong game. If you are leery of high-level play because of it's complexity, then invest the time it takes and be willing to be less than perfect at it. You and your players will get better with practice, and in the long run everyone will be happy. If you are a high-level player who has the rules majorly tweaked, just make sure the rules tweaks are for a good reason and are not costing your group some fun or challenge. If you started above 15th level, then stop what you are doing and go play RIFTS.

In summary, I believe that the whole problem with high-level play lies with the lazy DM. Players can easily get out of control and campaigns can spin wildly off course, but a good and prepared DM can deal with it and make sure everyone has fun.

Fell free to throw pies at me now.