I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[JamesonCourage]

Any of the above, sure. Any of those goes along with an attempt to model wounds, which is more than the HP system does.

Currently. More than the HP system does currently. I said, "shouldn't it take months to recover? No, weeks? Days?" In 3.X and previous editions, some wounds took days or weeks to recover.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that with or without surges, if you want to roleplay having a wound greater than scrapes, bruises or being winded, so, any major or even moderate wound, and actually have the wound matter instead of being heroically ignored, the HP system isn't backing you up.

Currently. It's not backing me up currently. If the wound takes 10 days to heal, I feel like it's backing me up to some degree. The wound takes a while, but the hero presses on without penalty. He's a hero, after all. If you can get a second wind, you can press on without penalties. This is right up the modern fantasy-genre's ally, which is what I've been asking for support with. It doesn't need to be realistic. I'm getting heroism applied to the "second wind" mechanic but not HP (getting physically wounded but not taking penalties). I don't know why that is.

Healing and surges are strongly tied, to be sure. But if one were to take a scalpel and remove surges from 4e, HP would still come back entirely with an extended rest. That happens without the input of surges. By the same coin, as has been mentioned previously, to houserule in a change in the recovery rate of HP, surges or both would be easy, with few ripples in balance. Basically, if only the rate of HP/surge recovery is an issue, a hypothetical 5e could quite easily keep surges while reducing the recovery rate.

I think the implementation is what needs improvement. Like I said, I don't mind the character pushing through injury to perform heroic feats. I enjoy that in modern fantasy, and I'd like to see it in the game.

Recovery rates is the basis for modeling a long term injury: indeed, it's the trademark of that injury. Again, just like second wind, I have no problem with the hero pushing through and fighting without disability or penalty. My system handles it otherwise (it has the option for penalty or disability), but I don't expect that out of D&D.

And, like I mentioned, I don't like that healing is an internal source.

House rules are nice. You can use the disease track, or lower recovery rates for healing surges. However, I'd like base support in a system. Give me options. I'd like more options in the base rules, not in optional rules, not in house rules. If pressed, I'll take them in optional rules in the core book, but I want as many rules that give me narrative options as possible to be the norm in a system. As always, play what you like

 

[Pentius]

Currently. More than the HP system does currently. I said, "shouldn't it take months to recover? No, weeks? Days?" In 3.X and previous editions, some wounds took days or weeks to recover.


Currently. It's not backing me up currently. If the wound takes 10 days to heal, I feel like it's backing me up to some degree. The wound takes a while, but the hero presses on without penalty. He's a hero, after all. If you can get a second wind, you can press on without penalties. This is right up the modern fantasy-genre's ally, which is what I've been asking for support with. It doesn't need to be realistic. I'm getting heroism applied to the "second wind" mechanic but not HP (getting physically wounded but not taking penalties). I don't know why that is.

I don't think that I am doing that. If you want to get wounded and not feel any penalties for it, because you are an awesome hero, that can achieved with HP, because HP is not about giving you penalties for wounds. I do not contest this idea. Second winds and surges can help this along, but HP doesn't need any help to not give you penalties for wounds. It has that covered.

If you want to get wounded, and not heroically ignore it, the HP system, with or without surges, is not really doing much for you. Maybe you used the rate of HP recovery as a rough guide to when you can switch from still RPing your self-imposed penalties to heroically ignoring them, but I don't see that as a slower rate of HP recovery modeling caring about your wounds, so much as it is usable as rough guide for a timeline if you want to undertake that task yourself.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I don't think that I am doing that. If you want to get wounded and not feel any penalties for it, because you are an awesome hero, that can achieved with HP, because HP is not about giving you penalties for wounds. I do not contest this idea. Second winds and surges can help this along, but HP doesn't need any help to not give you penalties for wounds. It has that covered.

If you want to get wounded, and not heroically ignore it, the HP system, with or without surges, is not really doing much for you. Maybe you used the rate of HP recovery as a rough guide to when you can switch from still RPing your self-imposed penalties to heroically ignoring them, but I don't see that as a slower rate of HP recovery modeling caring about your wounds, so much as it is usable as rough guide for a timeline if you want to undertake that task yourself.

If the mechanical HP system says you can't heroically ignore your wounds, it's because you're disabled by those wounds. In 3.X, if you get hit to -5, you're unconscious. If you're level 1, it'll take you a few days of recovery to get back up to a place where you're conscious but messed up (0 HP), and then to where you can heroically ignore your wounds (1 HP).

You cannot ignore wound penalties until 1 HP. You're wounded at 0 or less. You're still wounded at 1 (taking nonlethal knocks you out), probably, but you're disabled at 0 or less, due to your wounds, and without being able to heroically push yourself through it. After several days of rest, you can describe the character as feverish, but physically strong, and it's no surprise when he collapses from running for too long, taking a single punch, or the like.

3.X supported this narrative. While I'd like to see a mechanic for a second wind, I didn't like losing support for long term wounds. I felt that 3.X presented both long term and short term wounds as possible narratives, and the current mechanic takes that away. The system certainly supported the narrative, in my mind, as it left plenty of room to heroically push through serious physical ails.

 

[Pentius]

If the mechanical HP system says you can't heroically ignore your wounds, it's because you're disabled by those wounds. In 3.X, if you get hit to -5, you're unconscious. If you're level 1, it'll take you a few days of recovery to get back up to a place where you're conscious but messed up (0 HP), and then to where you can heroically ignore your wounds (1 HP).

You cannot ignore wound penalties until 1 HP. You're wounded at 0 or less. You're still wounded at 1 (taking nonlethal knocks you out), probably, but you're disabled at 0 or less, due to your wounds, and without being able to heroically push yourself through it. After several days of rest, you can describe the character as feverish, but physically strong, and it's no surprise when he collapses from running for too long, taking a single punch, or the like.

3.X supported this narrative. While I'd like to see a mechanic for a second wind, I didn't like losing support for long term wounds. I felt that 3.X presented both long term and short term wounds as possible narratives, and the current mechanic takes that away. The system certainly supported the narrative, in my mind, as it left plenty of room to heroically push through serious physical ails.

I concede that you are correct about what happens when a PC is reduced to negative hit points. That situation, though, is specifically not what I have been discussing since I returned to this thread on page 35. In that post, and ones following, I have been arguing against the stance that quality narratives about suffering from wounds(as opposed to not receiving or ignoring wounds) are supported while at or above 1HP, or as I put it "HP damage, on its own, never gives you any sort of quantifiable wound, unless it knocks you under 0, at which point things get cloudy."

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, you almost died, and you've mostly healed (flavor-wise), but you push yourself to your feet and decide to go back to helping people that need you. You still have cracked ribs, or bruised bones, or you're a little shaky when you stand, but you push on through it (you don't take penalties).

Because you can't ignore it pre-4e? You can't push through it? If you go into negatives, you are done. Full stop. End of story. Unless someone uses magic on you, you cannot do what Inigo just did fighting the 6 fingered man.

Nor, because every hit needs to be a wound, can two swordsmen do the Pirate Roberts vs Montoya fight because, until the very last few seconds, neither had taken a single point of damage. Oooh, I got disarmed. Well, he can't possibly kill me in a single hit with a sword, so I take my AOO and pick my sword up again.

Remember, in The Princess Bride, Wesley gets a very long term wound when he's tortured. He's not able to take an extended rest and be good to go. I support having a mechanic that makes the fight with the Six-Fingered Man possible, but I want the mechanics to allow me to have a character who's out of it because of injury, too. This is common in fantasy, and there's very little reason to deny that point.

Actually, Wesley gets killed and Raised, which, if you look at the Raise Dead ritual is actually pretty much directly modeled - the dead guy takes penalties until such time as he's completed six encounters (3 milestones). Fiddle with that mechanic slightly and you're good to go.

And, as far as torture goes, it would again be modeled with the Endurance skill. Fail the check and you can no longer take certain actions. It would be pretty easy to run an extended skill check where you get burned out of your healing surges every time you failed an endurance check. When your last surge goes, you can only take, say, move actions until such time as you take an extended rest.

 

[Pentius]

When your last surge goes, you can only take, say, move actions until such time as you take an extended rest.

Or, in Wesley's case, Not-Moving Actions

 

[JamesonCourage]

I concede that you are correct about what happens when a PC is reduced to negative hit points. That situation, though, is specifically not what I have been discussing since I returned to this thread on page 35. In that post, and ones following, I have been arguing against the stance that quality narratives about suffering from wounds(as opposed to not receiving or ignoring wounds) are supported while at or above 1HP, or as I put it "HP damage, on its own, never gives you any sort of quantifiable wound, unless it knocks you under 0, at which point things get cloudy."

No, HP never gives you "my leg is hurt!" as a wound, but I don't think the call in this thread has been for that. So, I'm not really sure why it's being brought up as a defense. It's not about whether a wound affects a particular area, or how deep it is, etc. The HP system is supposed to be abstract enough to allow multiple ways of handling description.

No, what's being brought up is whether or not a wound can be theoretically long term. If the wound takes a long time to heal, you're probably pretty hurt. If the wound takes a short time to heal, you're probably not. It doesn't need to be completely "quantified", it just needs to be able to simulate short term wounds and long term wounds (to satisfy my narrative wants). I also wanted crippling as an option, and I think there's real potential there, too (if you're crippled instead of dead).

Because you can't ignore it pre-4e? You can't push through it? If you go into negatives, you are done. Full stop. End of story. Unless someone uses magic on you, you cannot do what Inigo just did fighting the 6 fingered man.

... which is why I've said I'm for a mechanic that allows this to happen, like, oh I don't know, healing surges

As a side note, Inigo wouldn't have been in the negatives in pre-4e, as he was still conscious. He may have been at 0 (badly wounded and staggered). A surge to get to his feet and continue.

Nor, because every hit needs to be a wound, can two swordsmen do the Pirate Roberts vs Montoya fight because, until the very last few seconds, neither had taken a single point of damage. Oooh, I got disarmed. Well, he can't possibly kill me in a single hit with a sword, so I take my AOO and pick my sword up again.

And now you're reached where I want two HP pools! One for "physical" and one for "other". You whittle down the "other" pool and then you get to hit them physically.

My RPG even has an unrelated mechanic that would help here. If you ever deal physical damage to someone (so you're bypassed their other pool) with a melee weapon, you can skip dealing damage to keep a readied attack on them (if they do anything, hit them). If you choose to hit them, you deal not physical damage to them, even if their "other" HP pool is refreshed or in play (since it refreshes by round in my game).

This would mean that Wesley took down Inigo's "other" HP pool, disarmed him, hit his "physical" HP pool but didn't deal damage (scratched his cheek), and readied to hurt him if he did anything (which Inigo knew would hit his "physical" HP pool), actually wounding or killing him. Thus, he didn't go for his sword.

I'm not arguing that 3.X is perfect. I'm saying healing surges are imperfect as implemented, and he's how I'd work them in with the changes I made from 3.X (as 3.X wasn't good enough for me).

Actually, Wesley gets killed and Raised, which, if you look at the Raise Dead ritual is actually pretty much directly modeled - the dead guy takes penalties until such time as he's completed six encounters (3 milestones). Fiddle with that mechanic slightly and you're good to go.

He was only mostly dead

According to Miracle Max, he wasn't truly dead. He was just really messed up -sounds like a long term wound to me. Miracle Max makes a distinction that there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead -mostly dead is slightly alive.

And, as far as torture goes, it would again be modeled with the Endurance skill. Fail the check and you can no longer take certain actions. It would be pretty easy to run an extended skill check where you get burned out of your healing surges every time you failed an endurance check. When your last surge goes, you can only take, say, move actions until such time as you take an extended rest.

Well, that's way better than what Wesley had. That, and it's not in the rules. I think the idea of adding a long term injury to the rules is very reasonable, but that's me. As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

I believe that you are correct JamesonCourage, that torture is not specifically in the rules. However, applying the Endurance skill here is probably the simplest interpretation. And, that's how Endurance works in 4e. You make your Endurance checks until you get through or fail and when you fail, you the ability to take actions (which actions depends on what you're enduring - fail Endurance while swimming and you can't take Athletics checks and you drown forex).

Since AFAIK, D&D has never really had specific rules for torture, we're going to have to go past RAW to interpret this action in any edition. In 3e we'd use non-lethal damage points. In 4e we'd use the Endurance check. In earlier editions, we'd probably use some sort of saving throw mechanic and possibly the charm rules?

I wonder if the new Book of Vile Darkness will shed light on this sort of thing.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Perhaps. I know my RPG has rules on it, but that hardly helps! Too often, I think my personal wants get mixed up in what I want of D&D, if only because I addressed so many things I thought should be. Running territories, running a business, HP pools, revising or rebuilding skills (Diplomacy, Craft, etc.), adding new skills (Assess, Tactics, etc.), adding effects that govern attacks and damage types underwater, penalties for missing sleep, etc.

All of these things (and many others) are changed in my game, and I guess I want a game that continues to open up narrative possibilities in 5e. I want it to feel like D&D, which means keeping the class structure (even though I ditched it), etc., but I do want a lot of rule areas covered. I'd actually like to see them sell four core books: the PHB, DMG, MM, and CMC (Core Mechanic Collection).

The CMC would be a book of alternate uses for skills, attributes, and corner cases, as well as an in-depth look into the building blocks of mechanical creation. For example, they'd say, "here's how we mechanically value everything, and here's our own guideline for building races, classes, feats, and so on." So, now you know how to build everything you'd ever want to, but you'd get the real creative guys working for WotC, releasing books full of material that's able to be created via the rules, but that you'd have never thought to make, or giving "official" versions of stuff.

I have a concrete mechanical system for races in my game (and I could easily build classes). I know I could do it for feats easily enough. They'd just have to put the work in, but it's doable, in my opinion. Not that I think it would happen, but I can want it, can't I? As always, play what you like

 

[Griego]

Long-term wound healing is boring and tedious, which is why they removed it in 4e, I imagine. You lose the narrative of lying in bed for 6 weeks (wow, can't wait to roleplay that!) in exchange for gaining the narrative of taking a sucking chest wound at 4 in the afternoon and still being able to rescue the princess by midnight, when her soul would be sucked out by the evil sorcerer using a diabolic ritual. With long-term wound healing, your only choice is to ransom the dried husk of a corpse so her family can bury it properly. Oh, but there's always magic, magic trumps everything, which is a major failure of 3e, IMO. But that's another thread.