D&D 5E I feel like there is a problem with ability score bonuses.

Wulffolk

Explorer
[MENTION=42437]Wiseblood[/MENTION] I share your feelings about Abilities, and it also bothers me that so many character's end up looking exactly the same. I mentioned in an earlier post that I think this is the direct result of Bounded Accuracy, in which Proficiency Bonus and Level mean less than Ability scores for almost the entire career of most character's.

I am just thinking aloud here, but maybe this would make a positive difference:
Change the Ability Score Bonuses to half of what they currently are, rounded down.
Change the Proficiency Bonus to be half of current level, rounded up.
Change Skill checks to be rolling under the associated Ability Score, so even odd Ability scores matter.

Ability Bonus would equal:
3 = -2
4-7 = -1
8-13 = +0
14-17 = +1
18-20 = +2

This broadens the range of "Average" similar to earlier editions of D&D.

Currently the max bonus is +5 Ability +6 Profiency = +11
This option the max bonus is +2 Ability +10 Proficiency = +12
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
1st level PC has 0 experience points. They have skills and proficiencies but they are inexperienced.

They are beginners. Are they better than some or most? I don't care. As I said it is a feeling that soemthing is wrong not imperical fact. What bothers me is homogenous stats. Why are they homogenous? Because it's advantageous to have higher stats. Because the stat bonuses are dramatic and important.

33 days is hyperbole. I am glad your character has interesting achievments. My ears would perk up if he didn't have an18-20 in his main ability score. I don't know that he does. I can fairly state that based on my experience in 5e it is a safe assumption.

I also am not stating that it doesn't work. Or that I refuse to play or that I have a better way. Just a feeling that characters I once thought unique are pretty staid unless they are all but defective in their main stat.

You do realize that all of the issues you present here are completely under the DM's control and can be corrected? Your story, your problems. If, in your games, characters are barely trained neophytes, then the issue you have with characters that are barely trained neophytes being too competent is yours. You can change that and say that PCs are extensively trained in their professions, taking years to perfect their craft to this point. They level to 20 in 33 days? Don't you, as DM, control pacing and XP awards? Again, your problem. Monsters have high stats? Well, most that do aren't human and are exemplified by being more physically powerful than your average humanoid.

And I say all of this while agreeing with your OP -- I don't like how stats function in 5e. Strangely, it was the simplified ruleset of 5e that exposed this flaw, because it's more evident without the 3.x math chaff or the 4e treadmill of improvement (neither bad things, enjoyed both systems, but they had lots of things that hid how stats interact and, in fact, mitigated it). I'd like to see stats other than STR, DEX, and CON have more utility in the game other than to boost skills or improve casters. I've started to draft up some ideas many times, but all of them end up changing the game pretty far away from as written, and my players don't care about these things nearly as much as I do, and I don't care enough to not play or not enjoy myself running, so they've all languished half-formed and forgotten. Also, I have a mortgage payment, kids, and most of the Massive Darkness kickstarter to paint, so.... time is a pretty big issue.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Really, this problem is a result of the weird vestigial nature of ability scores. Over time, the role ability scores play in the game has changed considerably, making the numbers more and more important, while making the in-universe qualities they allegedly represent less and less reflected by their mechanical function.

In the earliest incarnations of D&D, ability scores served primarily as prerequisites. If you want to play X class, you need Y ability at Z or higher. They also gave small bonuses to certain tasks, though more often than not, your Class itself had a bigger impact than your ability scores. You see this especially in AD&D (both 1e and 2e), where every action has its own subsystem for resolving it, many with different tables to consult depending on your Class, and some actions you have be a certain Class to even attempt.

This left a lot of freedom to customize ability scores for the sake of role playing. As long as you met the prerequisites for your Class, the rest was largely up to you and what kind of person you wanted your character to be. But, there were a lot of problems with having so many separate subsystems. For one thing, you’d have to remember them all, which was a pain. And then what if a player wanted to attempt something that wasn’t covered by a subsystem? Do you re-purpose an existing system? Do you modify it? Do you just make something up? A lot of folks went the “just make something up” route, which is why there’s often a lot of “back in the day, there was more role playing and less roll playing” comes from, because a good chunk of the time there either weren’t rules for what you wanted to do, or the rules that did exist were ignored for being needlessly complicated.

Enter Wizards of the Coast. They set out to fix these issues in 3rd Edition by unifying all the various action resolution subsystems, making them all use the same math as attack rolls, but flipping the math so you’re adding instead of subtracting. Anything you could conceivably want to do, roll a D20, add a bonus determined by your Ability Score, add a bonus for any training you might have in a relavent Skill, and try to get a higher result than the task’s difficulty. This is, broadly speaking, a much better system. More approachable, easier to learn, and easier to improvise with, making it far more flexible. However, it also meant that every conceivable action had to be able to relate to one of the Abilities, and that’s just not something Abilities were originally designed to be able to handle.

This caused some weird things. A lot of tasks that didn’t previously relate to any Ability had to get rolled into one of the 6, and Wisdom and Dexterity did a lot of that work, which is a big part of why Dexterity is now the god stat and Wisdom is this weird amalgam of intuition, perception, empathy, willpower, and spirituality. It also made Ability scores way more important, because instead of giving small, nice-to-have bonuses on a few tasks but otherwise mainly serving as prerequisites and roleplauing aids, they suddenly became the backbone of the universal task resolution system.

4th Edition recognized that ability scores no longer served the same function, and attempted to fully embrace their function as raw numerical bonuses to various tasks. They wanted each Class to be able to use whatever ability it wanted for its attack rolls, and to a certain extent that made sense. Barbarians are supposed to be tough and do lots of damage, so why not let them use the stat that gives them more HP as the stat they add to their attack and damage rolls? It’s all just numbers anyway, why not swing that sword with Constitution? But, as with so much of 4th Edition, it failed to reconcile this new approach with player expectations. A Constitution Score might just be a number as far as the rules are concerned, but to the players it still represented a character’s hardiness. How could being tougher make you swing a seord harder? Without completely getting rid of the baggage of what these numbers represented in character, this numbers-first approach wasn’t going to be satisfying.

5th Edition, for better or worse, has been hugely influenced by the reaction to 4th edition, and a lot of the choices it makes are effectively apologies for 4th edition’s missteps. So, now we’re back to 3rd edition’s style of handling Ability Scores, where each Score does very specific things, regardless of Class. There’s a tiny bit more flexibility when it comes to magic, as different Classes have different Spellcasting Abilities, but you’re not going to be swinging any swords with Constitution this edition. However, with the addition of Bounded Accuracy (itself partly a response to the enormous numbers creep of 4th Edition), Skill training doesn’t outshine Ability Modifier nearly as much as it did in 3e. That means Ability Scores are even more important in this edition because not only do they tie into every conceivable action, they also account for a much larger proportion of your bonus to any given action. And with base attack bonus being combined with skill proficiency bonus, that goes for attacks as well.

Naturally, with attack rolls and spell saves being the most frequent rolls made in D&D, and with ability modifier playing a pretty big role in your chances of success (or your spell target’s chances of failure), plus your ability adding to damage... it’s onlu natural that every martial class will make either strength or dexterity their first priority, and every spellcaster will make their spellcasting ability their first priority. And as long as the mechanical element that makes a character good at casting wizard spells is the same as the one that represents how smart a character is, Wizards will always have Intelligence scores within a similar range.
 

Look, I'd be totally psyched for a game system that captured lots of interesting nuances to how I think living in a fantasy world should work, with just enough nods to realism and epic tropes, while not stepping on either's toes. And it would be cool if that game didn't have, like, a ton of rules or formulas or, like, things I have to remember. And it would be awesome if I could be totally super boss but also, like, have really hard challenges that make me feel good about myself.

Can someone write that for me? Please?
 

Salamandyr

Adventurer
Look, I'd be totally psyched for a game system that captured lots of interesting nuances to how I think living in a fantasy world should work, with just enough nods to realism and epic tropes, while not stepping on either's toes. And it would be cool if that game didn't have, like, a ton of rules or formulas or, like, things I have to remember. And it would be awesome if I could be totally super boss but also, like, have really hard challenges that make me feel good about myself.

Can someone write that for me? Please?

So you want to play D6 Fantasy then?
 


I love Conan, but as things are in 5e he would be just another PC. I understand PCs are exceptional, except they aren't because their foes are just like them +6 to hit d12+4 damage.
Conan is just another PC, which makes him a little less special because all PCs are as exceptional as he is, but his foes are mostly bandits and thugs with Strength in the 10-14 range.

If you imagine how the world works, the strongest and most dedicated fighters go on to become heroic adventurers, while the lesser fighters go on to become generic goons. Occasionally, the heroic adventurer meets an equal on the battlefield, but it really is the exception rather than the rule.

It's not that the world is skewed and everyone is amazing. The world follows a relatively normal distribution. It's just our perception of the world which is skewed, because we only pay attention to the sub-group of outliers.
 

Wulffolk

Explorer
Look, I'd be totally psyched for a game system that captured lots of interesting nuances to how I think living in a fantasy world should work, with just enough nods to realism and epic tropes, while not stepping on either's toes. And it would be cool if that game didn't have, like, a ton of rules or formulas or, like, things I have to remember. And it would be awesome if I could be totally super boss but also, like, have really hard challenges that make me feel good about myself.

Can someone write that for me? Please?

There are better game systems out there, but they lack the name recognition of D&D, and are thus harder to find players for.

Gygax & company did an excellent job capturing the imaginations of thousands of people like us, and creating a new genre of games for people to enjoy. For that I am eternally grateful to him.

I just wish they had been better at game design, so that D&D was built on a more solid foundation and was not burdened by so many legacies that make so little sense. I know that is easier to say in hindsight than it was to see in the moment, and games are much more sophisticated now, but the core problems with D&D are too baked in to change, and without D&D evolving the whole hobby stagnates.

It is like the NFL. There have been other leagues (USFL, CFL, XFL, WFL and college football) that have done some things better, but none of that matters because the NFL is still KING.

[MENTION=40233]Salamandyr[/MENTION] I much preferred dice pool systems like World of Darkness over d20, and would love to play a d6 rule-set for a fantasy game, but it is hard enough to find players for D&D, let alone obscure games. I had actually designed the foundation of a d6 dice pool RPG before I heard of d6 Fantasy, and there are a lot of similarities.
 
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