D&D 5E I figured out why all 5e ship rules suck

[Paul Farquhar]

I think one of the issues with the 5e ship rules is it remains locked into the assumed scale of hand-to-hand personal combat. One grid square is 5 feet, 1 turn is six seconds.

If you look at more successful ship rules, they run on a scale where a ship fits into a single grid square (or, more commonly, a hex), and turns are significantly longer.

 

[TheSword]

The more I read it the more I like it.

It’s giving me strong vibes of the Black Seas board game (which is a useful resource for ship minis, terrain cards and tokens etc)

I like the ship damage from tacking. It would have been very dangerous to the ship and crew to sail into the wind, with the quick changes required. This stuff wasn’t made out of modern polymers, it was wood and rope. A sail repeatedly swinging from side to side is going to cause difficulty.

The hardest thing for me, is how to capture the idea of simultaneous movement and not turn based movement. One idea I liked from black seas is being able to fire on your opponents turn (almost like a 5e reaction) in exchange for not firing on your turn. There is a slight penalty to it but I really like that rule. They call it Fire as She Bears.

 

[NotAYakk]

Most cannons can't fire very far straight up and many can't even be brought to bear straight up due to the design of the "trucks" they are mounted on. And even if they could aim upwards they'd be firing through their own sails and spars, so I still win.

Fantasy world with flying dragons and stuff. Ships will be defended from that direction. You'll also have weapons against the downward direction.

And even then, hitting a small flying moving target is way harder than hitting a ship.

Yes. Skeet shooting is a sport.

Not just that, but detection that goes well beyond the usual range for such things.

Not sure how that would work - explain?

Someone skilled (tool proficiency) in it can use it to determine the direction a spell comes from? Which in turn is relayed to the skeet shooters.

And more importantly set the sails and rigging on fire, thus leaving the target ship mostly dead in the water.

Yes, fire is a good weapon. Keeping the sails and rigging wet or fire resistant will be important given how much easier fire is in fantasy-land than in the real world.

Now, a typical ship won't have anti-flying and anti-underwater and anti-fire protection. But a warcraft will.

 

[jmartkdr2]

They call it Fire as She Bears.

I initially read that as “Fire as She-Bears,” which is a very different image.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Looks as good as most of what I've seen. Good job.


I think another fundamental problem is that it isn't clear what people want out of a ship system for a D&D or similar game. Even if the entire campaign is about being on ships, and maybe the ship is the party's #1 focus and valued possession, the dominant unit of focus for each player is likely to be their character. So you probably want your character to be a major contributor to success or failure in any ship-based endeavor (combat or otherwise). You may fee unhappy about the ship sinking out from under you and your character dying (as would make sense in a naval wargame, where your ships are your primary units of focus)-- even if it is still your character's actions or rolls or the like which determine when that happens. Most of all, I don't know if everyone is on the same page as to what ships should be doing -- should ship combat be the biggest factor, or are they mostly means of transport and that the focus? Should it be ships trying to sink other ships like age-of-sail warfare might focus upon, or are they mostly for getting the PCs, sailors, monsters, etc. to each other (boarding or ship as battlemap) with only some ballista and such as armaments? Beyond that, what are you even trying to do with a ship? Does having a larger hold for more supplies, treasure, or trading goods sound like a perk or not (given how desperate the thought on the resources/survival aspect of D&D, what good money has after a certain point, and whether anyone wants to play as merchants and tradespersons; it's hard for there to be a unifying vision for doing so but-in-a-boat).

LevelUp has stronghold rules and a supplement, or a planned supplement, will ships add strongholds. This gives you something to invest in, upgrade, and get tangible benefits from. Making the ship itself more of a character in the game.

 

[Campbell]

Is this the time to point out that the D&D combat system is a naval combat system?

 

[Laurefindel]

Is this the time to point out that the D&D combat system is a naval combat system?

Interesting,

Could you elaborate?

 

[FallenRX]

The problem with ship rules in general is that, DM's have no solid idea how to use them, because they are never designed with any real gameplay loop or structure in mind.

Like alright you have a ship? But how do you actually run ship travel, and combat while actually making meaningful choices.? No freaking clue.

Its why navel rules in most cases are a fun idea but no one ever uses them, because they are for nothing.

 

[Willie the Duck]

LevelUp has stronghold rules and a supplement, or a planned supplement, will ships add strongholds. This gives you something to invest in, upgrade, and get tangible benefits from. Making the ship itself more of a character in the game.

Yes, and I suspect the same people who got into the stronghold guides and domain rules and such in previous editions are the types for who this will work. There is a market for this type of thing -- it's just exactly what everyone else wants out of ships that I think is a tough nut that the 5e devs have to crack.

Interesting,

Could you elaborate?

Hit points were ported over from Don't Give Up the Ship (which probably got them from Fletcher Pratt's naval war game rules). To call D&D combat to be a naval combat system simply because of this parallel is a huge stretch, but I'm sure there are other similarities (and certainly we can say it was informed by naval combat games or something).

 

[Lanefan]

If you look at more successful ship rules, they run on a scale where a ship fits into a single grid square (or, more commonly, a hex), and turns are significantly longer.

Or you abandon squares and hexes completely and just use straight-line distances (really old-school idea: measure with pieces of string!). Unless there's rocks or other navigational hazards, the "battlefield" is wide open; might as well take advantage of that.