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I guess I really do prefer simplicity

Maybe I need to find a copy of the RC.
Only if you "need" a slightly different (and in some cases even more elaborate) pile of elaborations. Weapon Mastery is not exactly a "beauty in simplicity" kind of thing!

AD&D is the original D&D set, plus collected supplements. "No more searching through stacks of books and magazines ..." [PHB] "Too long have you had to suffer along with crucial charts and tables spread through many works." [DMG] Those blurbs on the backs of the books were aimed at harried OD&D players and DMs!

You can choose what (and what not) to use just as freely without having to go through Supplements I-III and Best of the Dragon to find it. I happen to be long accustomed to using the "little brown books", but that familiarity and the physical dimensions are the only merits I see. As much as possible, I like to have a DMG available; it really is packed with handy material (at least for me).

The RC is just the same sort of thing: a compilation, reorganization, and in some cases revision of material from the 8 BECM books plus some bits from elsewhere. It's a sort of "parallel AD&D".
 

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I suppose that, yes, if one were sufficiently motivated one could whip out a 3E character in 5-10 minutes flat, just by jotting down stuff as fast as possible with no consideration for skill point allotment, synergies, feats, and so on,
I'm not talking about "speed creation."

Borg, human fighter 1st

Str: 17
Dex: 13
Con: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 11

HP: 12

Saves:
F +4
R +1
W +1

AC: 18 chainmail, hv shield, dex

Attack:
+5 longsword, 1d8+3
+2 longbow, 1d8

Equipment: chainmail, heavy shield, longsword, dagger, longbow, arrows, backpack, rope

Skills: Jump 4 (-4), Climb 4 (+2), Ride 4 (+5)

Feats: Weapon Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack

*****

I just wrote up the above PC in 5 minutes -- literally, I checked the time when I started and checked the time when I finished. I wasn't rushing, or trying to beat time. I just wrote this up, and checked the SRD for a couple things to make sure I got the numbers right. (I haven't played D&D3 in about 6 months.)

No, it's not absolutely complete. I'd need to add up the equipment cost. But surely that can be done in the remaining 10 minutes.

But it's a fully ready to play PC. No less ready than the Borg PC in the BD&D book. And the only difference between this D&D3 PC and a BD&D PC is the Skills and Feats choices.

Really, is this really that complicated or time consuming?

Bullgrit
 

I always find spending gold on equipment the most nitpicky issue for character creation, whether it is Basic, AD&D, or 3e.

In 3e the fact that high level starting gold is not listed in the srd or the PH is always a speedbump.
 

Sure, but if your rules are simple enough, you might not have opportunity for hyper specialization.

This is true and also not a terrible thing IMHO.

Hyper specialization leads to a kind of repetition that gets old fast.
Yes Dave the fighter is a holy terror with his 2H sword of destruction but what about situations that make the use of that sword nearly impossible. Due to overspecialization Dave has one answer to any problem-his sword.
The mechanical advantage provided by this specialty make success at other approaches look more like anti-options. If Dave could do other things just a well then his sword skill wouldn't stand out. He would be stepping on some else's specialty. The DM needs to scale the challenges to the specialists or else the adventure is a cakewalk.

On the other hand we have Bob the fighter. Bob is proficient with a bunch of weapons but has no vast mechanical advantage when using any particular one of them. Bob can engage in ranged combat or other activities at about the same level of effectiveness. Other fighting men in the party have favorite fighting styles, as does Bob, but they can all contribute more or less equally in a variety of situations.

The boredom factor:
Both Dave and Bob could become boring to play after a time for various reasons.

What if Dave had to spend at least half of the campaign outside his specialty. The party uses a lot of diplomacy and ranged attacks and fights quite a bit against opponents that cannot be engaged in melee. Dave is now functioning in his element as a fighter about half the time. Depending on the likes of the player, this could be boring.

Bob plays through the same campaign. While not nearly as impressive in close fighting, he meaningfully contributes combat skills to every conflict. Depending on the likes of the player, the lack of super effective niche could be boring.
 

I think that's funny that I don't insist on that level of simplicity from my rules, and yet my play-to-prep time ratio is usually much better than that.
Complex rules themselves can be a big help there, so long as the complexity is more in play!

A typical fight in 4e seems to chew up about an hour. It doesn't have to take six minutes to pick some monsters, and the players don't have "old school" incentives to choose not to get into a fight. Easy peasy!
 


If you see my signature, you'll see I'm pretty bi-polar about this.

On the one hand, I love Pathfinder and its 3e-inspired complexity of feats, class features, and spell-like abilities.

On the other, I love Basic Fantasy's simple, no-nonsense approach to 5-steps to a PC and GO!

My players VASTLY prefer the former (and hence what we play) but I see the beauty in both art forms. Sometimes I want a big powerful PC who will fight and survive countless travels and adventures to eventually slay a BBEG and retire to demigodom, and sometimes I want to gen up a quick PC to send into the meatgrinder known as the caves of chaos.

Don't tell me one is more superior to the other though.
 

Simplicity and Diversity

But more simplicity tends to reduce diversity. Therein lies the dilemma I struggle with. How much simplicity vs how much diveristy do you want?

To me this really sums it up.

Generally I prefer simplicity in the rules because I think it is the story, or rather the setting, the events and how the characters chose to interact with them that is the most interesting point.

Still that does limit diversity to an extent.

This was something that I stuggled with when I was thinking about making a superheroes game. How could you possibly properly conver all the diversity of powers and talents displayed in comics and such?
My solution - let the players brianstorm the powers (talents) they want their character to have. Have them pick a rating for each of those talents and voila.
The talent does roughly what the player wants at the strength rating they picked.

In a home game at least this allows for an endless diversity of heroes/villains (and classic tropes as well) and a very simple rule set.

(OK its a little more complicated thatn that, and requires a particular amount of trust and maturity between players and DM. But the basic system is all of 6 pages :cool:)
 

The game should ALWAYS be simple enough to run/play without such added claptrap.

Keeping track of timed effects was always dicey. I can remember alot of times in AD&D going, "When did you cast X again? Is that still up?", and resolving the situation with a shrug and a, "I guess it goes down next round."

So I'm really thinking I could be into effect/status cards to help keep track of buffs.

[*]A character sheet should ideally fit on one side of one sheet of paper, 2 sheets at most excepting perhaps an extensive listing of spells. [Kind of goes along with the previous and following points.]

I had a 1st edition 'character sheet' that extended out to about 50 pages. It had a one page attribute/stat sheet listing various game related numbers, and a second devoted to known and memorized spells. Then I had another page listing commonly carried possessions, and another for my owned spell books. I had lists of holdings (buildings, ships, etc.) and the possessions and sums of cash stored there as well as maps for the more important ones. I had lists of expert hirelings. Lists of henchman and followers and their character sheets. Then I had lists of notes, like known contacts/NPCs in various cities and so forth.

That's extreme, but it does I think show that if you are deeply interactive with the world, even if you were using a diceless rules light system, the amount of overhead can be extremely heavy.

[*]Character creation should be able to be done SANS SOFTWARE in 10-15 minutes (again excepting perhaps extensive spell selection). It should take less than that to update a character sheet when a PC levels up.

One of the reasons I've come to like class based systems more than skill based ones.

[*]This is probably subject to a lot of variation, but the ratio of DM prep time to time spent gaming should be in the vicinity of 1:10. One minute of prep should enable a DM to run a game for 10 minutes of gaming.

Can't be done regardless of the system. With that little prep time, any game is practically extemporaneous and is going to have really limited depth. For an 8 hour session, that's like 48 minutes of note making. For the quality of notes I'd generate in that time, I could run the game off the cuff with very little difference in quality because all you were really doing in 45 minutes is taking down your first unrefined thoughts with no real research and rather little brainstorming.

Real play to prep time should be closer to 1:1 IMO. Any less than that, and you are cheating your players. 2:1 certainly wouldn't hurt, but I understand that no one (who is an adult) really has that much time unless they do it for a living.

Prep is work. There is no getting around that. Stating up foes and such is the short part of good prep work in all but the most complex systems (I'm looking at you GURPS), and even then its easier to take short cuts with stats and do them on the fly than it is to take short cuts in your world building or story plotting or dungeon creation. A good map takes alot of effort. Inventing NPC's and working them up in your head to the point you can really bring them to life isn't trivial. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you are going to be a great DM and not do alot of work. Even with a published module, it's probably a 1:1 prep time to play time effort to familiarize yourself with the module, expand it and flesh it out beyond the bare skeleton imparted by the 16 or 32 pages of text, and deal with the ambiguities, textual errors, and potential pitfalls in plotting.

5 or perhaps 10 minutes of prep and a DM should be able to run a game for an hour or better.

I've done this before, but any DM that thinks that they can do that consistantly probably has never experienced the alternative play experience. Moreover, a beginning DM simply can't pull this off because he has no stock of ideas and experiences to pull from.
 

This is true and also not a terrible thing IMHO.

Hyper specialization leads to a kind of repetition that gets old fast.
Yes Dave the fighter is a holy terror with his 2H sword of destruction but what about situations that make the use of that sword nearly impossible. Due to overspecialization Dave has one answer to any problem-his sword.
The mechanical advantage provided by this specialty make success at other approaches look more like anti-options. If Dave could do other things just a well then his sword skill wouldn't stand out. He would be stepping on some else's specialty. The DM needs to scale the challenges to the specialists or else the adventure is a cakewalk.

On the other hand we have Bob the fighter. Bob is proficient with a bunch of weapons but has no vast mechanical advantage when using any particular one of them. Bob can engage in ranged combat or other activities at about the same level of effectiveness. Other fighting men in the party have favorite fighting styles, as does Bob, but they can all contribute more or less equally in a variety of situations.

The boredom factor:
Both Dave and Bob could become boring to play after a time for various reasons.

What if Dave had to spend at least half of the campaign outside his specialty. The party uses a lot of diplomacy and ranged attacks and fights quite a bit against opponents that cannot be engaged in melee. Dave is now functioning in his element as a fighter about half the time. Depending on the likes of the player, this could be boring.

Bob plays through the same campaign. While not nearly as impressive in close fighting, he meaningfully contributes combat skills to every conflict. Depending on the likes of the player, the lack of super effective niche could be boring.


I'm going to have to disagree here. Firstly, I'm not talking about hyper-specialization as in being the best trippy chain fighter.

The problem with the super simplistic fighter is that he only has 2 tricks. Swing sword or shoot bow. And other than variance in the die type, nothing differentiates him from Mr. Swing Axe or Throw Axe. Not really anyway. If my PC died, yours could pick up my stuff and do the exact same thing.

With no extra rules, the figher is BORING. This is why folks move on to play Wizards. They get more rules and more OPTIONS.

This is why each subsequent edition has added more stuff to the fighter. To add some variance between REALLY different things my fighter does, compared to yours.

Because of the way the basic fighter worked, if I missed a session, you could play my fighter exactly the same way you played yours. And it wouldn't matter.

With the extra options like feats, it encourages playing my fighter differently than yours, to take advantage of the feats I have, that yours doesn't.

Basically, the rules gives options to define a PC, and then sets a play pattern for that PC.

I'd hate to call it a "restriction" but part of the challenge of roleplaying is to define a role which has limits to how it acts (choosing a Good alignment versus evil) and then solving the game's problems with those choices made.

To sum up, I like having enough complexity to differentiate my fighter from yours, and not just through the funny accent I use and the stupid weapon choice I chose during equipment buying.

I do however tend to just play core-rules. The extra add-ons do slow down setup, by spreading out the material and making too many choices available.

And as a DM, a more simplified set of rules would be nice, it would take less work to setup. Heck, back in my 2e days, I'd write DMing utils for my group. One of those tools was a monster encounter generator (it would print out the stats and HP blocks needed for an encounter). A monster needed about 7 simple lines of text (as in "HP: 5"). Nowadays, you need a whole stat block.

But this gets to where the DM needs a different set of rules than the players.
The players can easily track their own PC's complexity. A DM is running a number of short-lived NPCs, they don't need all those rules because they won't get to use them all in the 6 rounds they exist during combat.
 

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