I guess Savage Species is out now...

[Felon]

Probably because vampires don't work that way in D&D.

Um, you're kinda much missing out on the whole point of Savage Species, which is to change the way monsters "work" in D&D.

When a vampire kills you, you either become a vampire spawn and stay that way forever (or until some enterprising adventurer comes along and kills you again), or you become a "real" vampire which is a template. The template-vampire could then advance as a character class, but the vampiric powers wouldn't change.

You're really not getting it. I'm familiar with how vampires work in the 3e MM. But what you're saying is applicable to pretty much all monsters prior to Savage Species, is it not? Ghouls, ogres, air elementals, and flesh golems weren't built to advance in levels and gain their abilities incrementally either. The whole lame "Vampire Spawn as monster, True Vampire as template" is basically just the best way they had at the time to reflect that there is a great variety of vampires of vastly different power levels--some which are little more than a wight, some which are monsters of legendary might that make them lords of their realm.

D&D vampires are *not* White Wolf vampires that have to learn how to use their vampiric abilities.

Maybe it's just me, but you seem to actually be going out of your way to *not* get it. Here's the deal: Savage Species is a book for people who want to play monsters. Vampire is one the classic monsters people have wanted to play. One of the ways that Savage Species makes monsters playable is by repackaging them as classes that gain new abilities as they advance, rather than just getting those abilities as a lump sum from the moment they're born, created, risen, or what have you. Vamps adapt at least as well to this idea as any other monster.

You know the whole "Tools not rules, options not restrictions" mentality that 3.5 is supposed to embrace? Try giving it a shot, rather than telling people how things are or aren't supposed to work.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Actually, Felon, I think you missed the mark a bit.

The point of Savage Species isn't to change the ways monsters work. It's to allow you to play monsters as PC's. One way to do that is an ECL. Another way to do that (if you don't want to wait for the full ECL) is to break down the monster into a Monster Class, which would gain it's abilities over the course of many levels. Then, ya slap a level adjustment on the end to reflect the power of the class, and BAM.

Both types of vampires in the MM are a special case.

In one instance, you have a vampire spawn, which is effectively a pseudo-vampire that some of their fatalities are turned into. Since a Vampire Spawn is basically beholden to the vampire that created it, it doesn't make a very easy PC concept ("Sorry, guys, no dungeon for me, I have to sweep the master's pantry and help him seduce an englishman tonight. Blah!").

The other one would be the Vampire template.

The thing about the vampire template is that no levels are gained to gain the powers that the template applies...effectively, there's no way to break it down into a slower progression...you simply get the powers, and BOOM. No HD. No BAB. No saves. ONLY supernatural powers. And those, all at once (not over the course of time). About the only thing you can do with that is slap an ECL on it, because there's no progression of abilities. It's all of a sudden.

Savage Species didn't want to rewrite what a Vampire was in D&D (or any other monster for that matter). It basically boils down to that a Vampire Spawn makes an awkward PC (and so the space was devoted to other races), and the Vampire template can't be really made gradual and steady, or it'll become something different than was in the MM (which they certainly didn't want to do).

So, while it would be possible to whip up a handy-dandy Vampire Template ECL, or (better yet) a Vampire Spawn monster class, the writers just didn't feel that the VS warranted space, and...

Well, I dunno if they provided a Vampire ECL. They probably should've, but if they didn't, it's probably related to their theory about undead as heroic PC's (whicih I give a big to).

 

[Desdichado]

I'd be surprised if Old Guard has Savage Species -- they really focus a lot more on the historical wargaming hobby, and I've never found their staff to be very knowledgable about RPG stuff. Still a good store -- I buy all my Osprey books there, for instance, but not a great RPG store. A few blocks away at Ford and Middlebelt is Pandemonium, which is better than Old Guard for RPGs and GW stuff, although they get their stuff mostly from Diamond, so their not really ahead of the curve on material by any means.

Frankly, I haven't seen an RPG store better than Curt's place in Mount Pleasant, IL in my whole RPG career, although that's a bit of a drive from Detroit just to pick up a book or two.

EDIT: There must be more than one Old Guard -- the one I know is on Ford Road somewhere around Venoy.

 

[Staffan]

Um, you're kinda much missing out on the whole point of Savage Species, which is to change the way monsters "work" in D&D.

I was going to respond, but Kamikaze Midget did it much better.
Besides, vampires are boring

 

[Felon]

Actually, Felon, I think you missed the mark a bit.

Betcha I didn't

The point of Savage Species isn't to change the ways monsters work. It's to allow you to play monsters as PC's. One way to do that is an ECL. Another way to do that (if you don't want to wait for the full ECL) is to break down the monster into a Monster Class, which would gain it's abilities over the course of many levels.

Which effectively changes the way those monsters work, assuming we're using the word "work" in the same sense that Staffan was using it.

Both types of vampires in the MM are a special case. In one instance, you have a vampire spawn, which is effectively a pseudo-vampire that some of their fatalities are turned into. Since a Vampire Spawn is basically beholden to the vampire that created it, it doesn't make a very easy PC concept ("Sorry, guys, no dungeon for me, I have to sweep the master's pantry and help him seduce an englishman tonight. Blah!").

Oh, come on. There are plenty of stories out there about vampires (and other characters with a monstrous/cursed nature) emancipating themselves from their masters and overcoming the obstacles that relegate the majority of their kind to spending their existence lurking in the muck as a minion. Nothing new here.

The other one would be the Vampire template. The thing about the vampire template is that no levels are gained to gain the powers that the template applies...effectively, there's no way to break it down into a slower progression...you simply get the powers, and BOOM. No HD. No BAB. No saves. ONLY supernatural powers. And those, all at once (not over the course of time). About the only thing you can do with that is slap an ECL on it, because there's no progression of abilities. It's all of a sudden.

Yes, making a template into a class presents a special challenge, although it isn't as insurmountable as you and Staffan portray it to be. My initial post was essentially expressing disappointment that SS didn't provide any tools for taking on that challenge. As for not gaining HD, BAB, or saves, you do in fact receive the latter two based on the creature type that the character becomes (in this case, undead), although they are inappropriate for a vampire. The lack of HD is more of a problem because without that to combine with the ECL to determine the total amount of levels, you have to make an educated guess. So you make an estimation, and put it on paper to see if it works out, and if it passes muster you playtest it. This is what I expect WotC to for me in a book like SS, but if I've gotta do it myself, then fine.

Savage Species didn't want to rewrite what a Vampire was in D&D (or any other monster for that matter). It basically boils down to that a Vampire Spawn makes an awkward PC (and so the space was devoted to other races), and the Vampire template can't be really made gradual and steady, or it'll become something different than was in the MM (which they certainly didn't want to do).

Why did they certainly not want to do that? They have the space and the tools to do it here, which didn't have in the MM, and they don't have to re-write a darn thing; it doesn't break the game to say "here's another way to do it". Making the vampire (or most templates for that matter) into a class that gradually gains abilities is far from an impossible task. There are prestige classess (Fang of Lolth, Dragon Disciple) that essentially are exactly that: templates applied over the course of character levels. Why not present a template such as Vampire in the same manner as a PrC? It's definitely a more balanced approach than just slapping on an ECL. If you're still worried about the whole "serving a master" issue, you can establish prerequisites that cover emancipation.

The bottom line here is, I haven't heard anything yet that makes the idea of a vampire monster class impossible to do. Why be so quick to insist something won't work?

They probably should've, but if they didn't, it's probably related to their theory about undead as heroic PC's (whicih I give a big to).

LOL. Well, they did present ghouls, mummies, and shadows as playable PC's. That's certainly a big step in a more open-minded direction for them.

 

[Felon]

I was going to respond, but Kamikaze Midget did it much better. Besides, vampires are boring

Aha, I thought I heard the grating sounds of axe being grinded somewhere in your initial post.