D&D 5E I hate expertise dice as a universal mechanic.

[Zaran]

Before expertise the Rogue was pretty boring in combat. Their choices consisted of attacking, hiding, and attacking from stealth. I am glad they added Expertise to the Rogue's abilities. Now there are options available to those who want it in a simple way. I see no reason why this shouldn't happen. For those of you who think that Rogue Expertise is underpowered compared to the fighter, I think that's another thing altogether. Argue for better options with the Expertise dice and not for the system to be removed just because the options available are underpowered.

 

[mlund]

Expertise Dice are perfectly fine as a shared metric (means to quantify a resource). Maneuvers (how you spend the dice) are what need to be differentiated between the classes.

There's plenty of room for overlap, but each class also needs ample space where they do not overlap so as to define their unique niche. In some cases one class will have a maneuver that is "just better" than a maneuver that the other class gets - and that's great. The Fighter gets a maneuver to use Expertise Dice to help with a skill check involving Strength, while the Rogue get a maneuver to help with ANY skill check. Cool. The Fighter gets Deadly Strike (expertise for damage) while the Rogue gets Sneak Attack (conditional expertise for the same damage). Cool.

They both get saving throw boost maneuvers and damage-deflection maneuvers. The Fighter gets blocking abilities and whirlwind attack. The Rogue gets movement tricks. That's a good framework even thought the Maneuvers List needs more work just like the Spell List does.

Similarly there's always been a bonus of overlap and non-overlap between the Wizard and the Cleric. They share a lot of transmutation, abjuration, and enchantment spells. The Wizard never gets healing and the Cleric can't cast Fireball. That's always worked pretty well.

As to "Fighter-light," I don't see that as being the problem. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If the Fighter is going to have all his talents pinned to the Combat Pillar and Rogues are going to dominate the Exploration and Interaction Pillars then when I play a Rogue I know I'm signing on to feel like an "also ran" in the Combat Pillar when it comes to Fighter Damage, HP soaking, and Armor Class. That's called balance*.

(* My dictionary also lists that word as a handy antonym to the words "Elminster," "Raistlin," and "Drizzit.")

I think real problem is that the Fighter is just pinned to the Combat Pillar right now - and in particular he's pinned to hitting things really hard. I think the game would be better if the Fighter had a better gift for "stunts" (athletic improvisation in and out of combat) and the Rogue had more utility for gimping enemies with his expertise dice - hamstringing, blinding, tripping, climbing-on-the-back-of-monsters-and-riding-them, etc. Fighters should impress in multiple ways on the battlefield, and the Rogue should be able to disable a guard, a lock, or the right eye of a Balrog with equal aplomb.

- Marty Lund

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Expertise Dice as a generic martial mechanic works. Each class having it's own maneuver list is good. These form a basis that can be adjusted to make sure each class has the correct flavor.

What both the fighter and the rogue are missing right now are class features that augment specific maneuvers. This is where each class has the opportunity to really shine.

Look at the wizard as an example. Wizard traditions enhance specific spells to provide particular flavor. Fighting Styles and Schemes should do the same thing. And all of them should provide additional enhancements as the character gains levels. Enhancing existing options works well because it doesn't complicate the character very much.

Also, each class should get a special feature at 5th and 10th level that is independent on deity, fighting style, scheme, or tradition.

All together, this means that classes aren't defined by unique mechanics, but by their unique relationship to generic mechanics.

 

[WhatGravitas]

All together, this means that classes aren't defined by unique mechanics, but by their unique relationship to generic mechanics.

Yeah, I see this a bit like wizards vs. sorcerers in 3/3.5E. They both use spells, but in a different manner. I think Expertise Dice as shared "martial" mechanic can work very well - but they need to be differentiated in how they interact with them.

In this case, I think rogues really need to have a different way of gaining expertise than just getting them per turn. A mechanic to gain/lose dice based on round per round actions would work much better and feed into the theme how rogues needed to setup backstabs/sneak attacks.

And, of course, similar to the difference between wizards & clerics, they need to have a good and different range of manoeuvres with some basic overlap only.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

In this case, I think rogues really need to have a different way of gaining expertise than just getting them per turn. A mechanic to gain/lose dice based on round per round actions would work much better and feed into the theme how rogues needed to setup backstabs/sneak attacks.

I could see that. The rogue is the master of situational expertise. The Assassin Rogue gains extra dice when attacking from hiding. It's sort of like the wizard's signature spell.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

I could see that. The rogue is the master of situational expertise. The Assassin Rogue gains extra dice when attacking from hiding. It's sort of like the wizard's signature spell.

Rogue Styles

• Sneak Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you are currently hidden.
• Improvised Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you performed an improvised action last turn.
• Opportunist Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you currently have advantage over an opponent.

Fighter Styles

• Duelist Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you are currently in reach of a single opponent.
• Brawler Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you are currently in reach of 2 or more opponents.
• Defensive Style - Gain extra expertise dice if you performed the Full Defense action last turn.

 

[Leatherhead]

I agree.

Fighters should get expertise dice.
It changes how their attacks work.

Rogues should get skill trick dice.
It changes how they interact with the environment (and the creatures in it).

Wizards should get metamagic dice.
It changes how their spells work.

Clerics should get blessing/curse dice.
It changes the environment (and the creatures in it) around them.

But for simplicity of mechanics like multi-classing (if that's still going to be a thing) just make the dice pool the same, and allow them to be spent differently.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

D&D survived AEDU, but I think turning it into a dicepool game might be the end.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

D&D survived AEDU, but I think turning it into a dicepool game might be the end.

Entirely possible.

I am even not sure if it really makes multiclassing smoother. It could even be the opposite.

 

[ren1999]

I'll reserve my judgement until we've had a chance to play with the expertise dice some more.

Right now, I love the idea of the fighter being able to Protect. I think Clerics should also have this ability as they are trying to heal the party anyway.

I absolutely love the fact that every player can have a reaction. It adds a whole new element to the game.

Keeping track of spent expertise dice might be as cumbersome and bothersome as keeping track of conditions was in 4th edition.

Maybe, Chris' static bonus option could be an alternative to a dice pool? Could we have both to suit people's play styles?

Instead of rolling a 2d6 for expertise dice, perhaps a flat bonus of +6 could substitute the roll. We do it all the time when taking 10 instead of rolling a 1d20.