I have a problem: I need arguments!!

Because there is more material/support/options available to 3E games, than 1 or 2E?

Seriously though - with the open gaming license, you can find pretty much everything you need/want.

Nearly anything :)

Taren Nighteyes
 

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The biggest mental hurdle I had to overcome when switching from 1e/2e to 3e was the notion that ability scores no longer have to be ridiculously high to have a meaningful effect on the game. An ability score of 12 is now decent, and 14 is good. This was not the case in 1e/2e.

I would also play up the d20 mechanic - the unified task resolution system for (nearly) everything. And, the fact that "higher is always better" - this is another key shift from earlier editions.

The idea of pre-generating characters is a good one. Hand out the iconics and run them through a simple adventure, ideally one where they get to use all the 3e mechanics (skill checks, saving throws, combat, spells). If that doesn't sell them on the game, nothing will.
 



Some of these may be covered, but these would be my pluses:

- the plethora of d20 support material that is available.
- the simplified mechanic - 20 is always good, 1 is always bad.
- consisent XP mechanic - all classes are the same.
- classes are more balanced to each other versus other classes (esp. in 3.5)
- spells are more balanced now compared to previous releases (esp. in 3.5)
- universal feat system means you can tailor your character to your ideal
- There are rules for making magic items (even though they suck, they are there).
- CR/EL mechanic provides a mechanism (though imperfect) for balancing encounters.
- saving throw system simplified (3 versus 5)
 


Michael_Morris said:
I would like to get the group to go to 3e, but I'm having trouble coming up with convincing arguments - I've tried many but I figured I'd poll you guys for more.
Can't come up with more if I don't know what the "many" original ones are (and why they were rejected)...
 

die_kluge said:
- the plethora of d20 support material that is available.
- the simplified mechanic - 20 is always good, 1 is always bad.
- consisent XP mechanic - all classes are the same.
- classes are more balanced to each other versus other classes (esp. in 3.5)
- spells are more balanced now compared to previous releases (esp. in 3.5)
- universal feat system means you can tailor your character to your ideal
- There are rules for making magic items (even though they suck, they are there).
- CR/EL mechanic provides a mechanism (though imperfect) for balancing encounters.
- saving throw system simplified (3 versus 5)
The consistent XP mechanic is not necessarily an upside, since as a result, it tends to force the next point, that classes MUST be balanced, because everyone earns the same XP to gain a level. You can't simply tack a higher XP cost onto a class which is more "overpowered", like wizards. The skill system is not, in all ways, an improvement, since the newly introduced "cap" on skills tends to force the issue: Characters are now constrained to suck horribly at low levels by virtue of this cap, unable to plow skillpoints into a single field of specialty to achieve competence in it before trying to branch out. Just compare a level 3 character of 3E to a level 3 character of 1/2E. An L3 character of 3E is an underdeveloped newbie: Most of his feat chains haven't paid off into anything useful yet....in fact, unless you're a human, fighter, or both, you have a whopping *TWO* of these things. All of your skills are at pathetic levels and suck horribly. At least in 1E/2E, the thief could, at this point, probably have achieved a competent rating in SOMETHING. In 3E, you're just plain bad at everything, thanks to that nice hard cap on things.

The saving throw system is a source of net improvement, overall: Now the saving throws seem to MEAN something, whereas in 1E/2E, the names of saving throws had only a tenuous connection with what they *DID*. However, the drawback of this is that now saving throws are blatantly rigged by class: Attempting to pass a "weak" save at higher levels quickly falls into the "more or less impossible" area, particularly when a single failure results in more or less instant death. This is somewhat of a drawback, since by level 20, you're looking at what amounts to a -6 penalty, and probably not bolstered by good stats, to boot. You can basically consider anything aimed at a "weak" save a total writeoff: Unless you have some magic item granting you immunity to that type of attack, you're SOL, particularly with Fort/Will.

Fail a Fort save: Instant death.
Fail a Will save: Why are even bothering to play, when your DM can do it for you? Where did I put those cheetos and the Gameboy?
 

Now the saving throws seem to MEAN something, whereas in 1E/2E, the names of saving throws had only a tenuous connection with what they *DID*.
DM: Okay, you've walked into a pit trap... make a saving throw vs. Breath Weapons.
Me: Huh?

*later*

DM: Okay, the barmaid is trying to seduce you... make a saveing throw vs. Rods!
Me: HUH? And, ew.

Y'know, I don;t think I could run a 2nd Ed fight now if I tried... I really can't remember how Thac0 works anymore.
 

Norfleet said:
Just compare a level 3 character of 3E to a level 3 character of 1/2E. An L3 character of 3E is an underdeveloped newbie: Most of his feat chains haven't paid off into anything useful yet....in fact, unless you're a human, fighter, or both, you have a whopping *TWO* of these things. All of your skills are at pathetic levels and suck horribly. At least in 1E/2E, the thief could, at this point, probably have achieved a competent rating in SOMETHING. In 3E, you're just plain bad at everything, thanks to that nice hard cap on things.

OK, feats are sort of bonuses that 1e/2e characters did not get at all except through nonweapon proficencies so only having two does not make you weaker than an older edition character. The Basic and 1e thieves were pretty poor at everything except climbing until higher levels unless they were maxed out in dex and specific race combos. They started out with something like 20% on some skills. In 2e they had the advantage of being able to boost their skills as they desired so they could be good at two skills at 3rd level.

Everybody else had skills from non weapon proficiencies where all that mattered was your raw ability scores for whether you succeeded all the time or fifty fifty.

Also a 3rd level 3e character will have more hit points from con than a 1e/2e character, do more damage with a moderate strength, and have more spells than an older edition character (except for 1e clerics).
 

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