D&D 4E I have seen the coming of 4e...

[qstor]

And it's a computer game.

I was at DDXP. I ran some Living Greyhawk games and I played one of the previews and the delve. I played Escape from Sembia. This is kinda quick but here's a few of my thoughts.

I'll try to be balanced but overall I disliked the game because of the way it played. One of my friends said I was determined not to like it. I was open to it so I played it. I was big into Living Greyhawk and Living Kalamar and the RPGA since 2000. I also play Shadowrun, HERO system or have played them and will play them in the future. I've played Rifts too.

I disliked not having the gnome, the bard and the druid in the PHB. I wasn't happy about that. Having played the previews I do think the remarks about it playing like a computer game are true. Thus the flashly intro at the top.

One of the abilities or powers was ability to automatically heal yourself hit points during a round/encounter. which I REALLY disliked. I can't see why that ended to be ADDED. Game balance NO IMHO. I can't think of another game system off the top of my head where that automatically happens.

Over all I feel exactly as JeffB put it in a closed thread
"It seems to me that the 3E and 4E design teams are just people who never much cared for the original games , the kids I used to play with who had to have 25 pages of house rules and whose tastes differed from the intent/spirit of those early versions. They (WOTC) have remade it to appeal to the younger generation and different style of gamer than I am, and they will do well with it."

Why I feel this is as a result of my 4e play experience...Rangers (perhaps my favorite class since 1e) are no longer the only class that can automatically track. Track feat has been done away with. Clerics can no longer destroy undead (From what I understand) Nor can they turn undead multiple times per encounter. Some other players were glad of this. Game balance? IMHO no. It's part of the game. The designers didn't think that it needed to be included. I'm sure they think its because of game balance. I doubt it. Skeletons don't have DR against arrows. That doesn't make since. Clerics don't cast spells. They have prayers. Hmmm...name change? Why? I guess players of wizards got confused why clerics cast "spells". The powers abilities don't seem like feats or class abilities. They are powers. That seems like a computer game to me. History of the game another example. Magic missile doesn't automatically hit. Come ON..game balance issue...NO...not when at 9th level in 3e the damage caps even with empowered and maximized magic missiles. The automatically hitting is part of the game history.

I guess to work at wizards in 2005 when "Orcus" or 4e was being worked on Bill Slavicsek said gee people who hates 1e lets make a game where we can get kids off of WOW and into D&D....why it's called D&D I don't know....

Quote removed. Mike, please don't take quotes from closed threads and repeat them out of context. Not only are threads closed for a reason, you took one of my quotes that applied to a specific question, and stated it as if I was referring to 4e. I wasn't, so that wasn't the case. ~ Piratecat

true IMHO to an extent...if it gets kids to replace 35-40 yo grognards I guess it's worth the marketing campagin.

The rah rah go 4e climate at DDXP left a cold feeling in my gutt...When 3e came out in 2000, I embraced the new system and loved the changes to D&D. I saw how rolling a d20 and adding skills and to hits made the game simpler and how 3e is/was part of OD&D, 1e and 2e...and how it improved D&D
4e perhaps is too radical for me. It seems like the red boxed set I got as a kid isn't anything more, instead I can take my 25th level fighter in 4e kill a red dragon and heal myself without a cleric. Maybe I'll jump into a lava pit since as one of the players at the table said to me. NOTHING is automatic anymore and my poor magic missile might miss.

Castles and Crusades anyone?

Mike

 

[Oldtimer]

History of the game another example. Magic missile doesn't automatically hit. Come ON..game balance issue...NO...not when at 9th level in 3e the damage caps even with empowered and maximized magic missiles. The automatically hitting is part of the game history.

No, it's not. It hasn't always been auto hitting. It wasn't in OD&D or in the Basic D&D Rules.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It wasn't in OD&D or in the Basic D&D Rules.

It autohits in Moldvay BD&D. I know cause I just checked.

 

[dm4hire]

Star Wars Saga Edition uses the same mechanic for healing. It helps account for not having a cleric and makes it so you don't have to have a cleric. I hate seeing someone play a class because they feel it's needed. Now you can actually get buy without having certain classes in the party, may not do as well, but you don't need them.

We haven't seen the player's handbook yet so don't count tracking out yet. As with the paladin who was listed with an ability that had already been fixed (PCs were printed prior to finalizing of book) that might be something that's changed.

I'd give the game a little more time as it sounds like you enjoyed it, but just weren't comfortable with the changes. Like someone else commented in another post, you're playing 4e with 3e thinking, which is hard to adjust too in just one weekend. As I have been telling my players, if over the next couple of month before it releases you find you still don't like it, then don't buy it no one's going to make you do it.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm fairly certain I've played other games where you can spend an action to heal yourself.

At the least there's DnD with potions, Lay on Hands, and various other powers.

Most SF games I've played will have something like medpacs.

And I recall some modern games with second wind type mechanics. My mind wants to tell me Spycraft in particular, but I can't say for certain.

 

[Doug McCrae]

To the OP:

It fills my heart with nostalgic delight to see a 4e critic complaining that it's too videogame-y. These days it's all "It's not simulationist enough" and "It's a boardgame, not a rpg." Most 4e hatorz seem to have lost their sense of history. I hope someone says it is anime next. That would be wonderful.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

I don't see why "it's a computer game" is necessarily perjorative. Does having interesting things you can do in combat, rather than, "I hit, I miss, I hit, I miss," and inevitably being outclassed and outshone by the spellcasters, when you're any class but a spellcaster, mean that the game is somehow 'ruined'?

I also fail to see how making magic missile so that it can miss -- since IIRC you can now use it indefinitely now -- absolutely destroys the game either.

I also don't see why renaming priest spells as "prayers" is that big of an issue. At least now you can say "can I see the list of prayers" rather than having the clumsiness of "priest spells" and "wizard spells." And in any case, it appears to be a cosmetic non-issue.

And finally, if you already think that 1e is perfect, why on earth aren't you playing it? Why worry about 4th edition at all? It's no skin off your nose. Perfection, in your opinion, already exists -- go forth and use it, my friend! The creation of 4th edition does not prevent you from using 1st edition, which apparently already has everything you want.

I will respectfully point out, though, that if D&D was still trying to get by publishing 1st edition AD&D as its only and permanent product, it would be long, long, long, long, long dead, and there would be nothing remotely resembling D&D in the market today.

 

[Piratecat]

To the OP:

It fills my heart with nostalgic delight to see a 4e critic complaining that it's too videogame-y. These days it's all "It's not simulationist enough" and "It's a boardgame, not a rpg." Most 4e hatorz seem to have lost their sense of history. I hope someone says it is anime next. That would be wonderful.

Doug, don't threadcrap. Don't agree with him? Then either discuss it or move on to a more interesting thread for you. This sort of comment helps not at all.

You know, folks, it's okay if some people didn't like 4e. That doesn't mean you won't. Conversely, it's okay if some people did like 4e. That doesn't mean you will. So making snarky comments about other folks is not what we'd advise.

 

[Demigonis]

Maybe I'll jump into a lava pit since as one of the players at the table said to me. NOTHING is automatic anymore and my poor magic missile might miss.

Actually they've said lava kills you, no save.

Overall it just sounds like you're too tightly gripped to non-essential things from previous editions. (At least they're non-essential to me, such as magic missile always hitting. Who cares?)

 

[Oldtimer]

It autohits in Moldvay BD&D. I know cause I just checked.

You are correct in that. And reading through the description and comparing it to the older versions, it could be that it was always supposed to auto-hit, but it just wasn't spelled (no pun intended) out earlier.