D&D 4E I have seen the coming of 4e...

[Remathilis]

Y'now...assumptions are a funny thing.

Oh, do tell...

MAYBE ....what you consider an improvement, I do not.

Your entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine.

MAYBE.... I don't care for my combats to seem like a session of Squad Leader and last the better part of 3 hours. Or even one hour for that matter.

I fail to see how this is relevant to 4e. One of the longest combats I ever saw was in second edition. And fourth edition is speeding up combat.

MAYBE.... "cool" to me is playing the part of a fragile 1st level elven wizard with a sleep spell, no armor ,and a dagger in his boot instead of 1st level eladrin wizard who can teleport around the battefield as a natural ability and packs as much punch as the fighter, ranger or paladin.

I see your definition of cool relies heavily on a mountain of dead, fragile elven wizards because the DM rolled a 19 on his save vs. spell and the kobold's spear does 1d6 against your 2 naturally rolled hp.

Oh, elf is still a race in the PH. Dagger is in the equipment list. Sleep is a daily power, and you still have an option to put you lowest score in con. Ta.

MAYBE.... instead of having to make sure all the classes have kewl things to do in combat in order to have fun (according to the designers, who know whats best for me ), I like to run games where each class in question gets a chance to shine in an adventure and use his skills/abilities the others do not have whether its a combat situation or not.

Oh yeah, because I had Sooo much fun being the bard watching everyone else do something while I used a standard action to grant +1 to hit and damage. Or the cleric who cast cure light wounds every round to keep the fighter alive. Or the monk with his flurry or misses. Or the rogue who couldn't do enough damage to with his dagger to damage a CR 1/2 skeleton...

MAYBE.... some people need to get off their high horses and realize the game has changed very significantly in the past two editions despite the names remaining the same and just because some of us may not like all the changes does not make us "wrong", "grognards", or "nostalgic".

Didn't say you were wrong. You like an older version of the game. There are people still running Windows 98 ya know? However, to look at the latest version of the game and decree a.) the designers are ruining your fun and b.) you know the best and proper for D&D to be played makes me think you almost might want to dismount before engaging in mortal combat.

MAYBE.....just maybe...I happen to LIKE...no REALLY, IT'S NOT NOSTALGIA, BUT ACTUALLY LIKE (!) prior editions of the game. OMG-ZERS, IS THAT LIKE, POSSIBLE? (well, not according to the 3E or 4E designers it seems or a alot of people here on ENWORLD lately! All these years I THOUGHT I was having fun??? But it was just nostalgia. I really *wasn't* having any fun at all

I dunno. I had LOTS of fun in BECMI. and 2e. And Players Options. And 3e. And 3.5. I still LOVE BECMI D&D and would play it in a heartbeat. But I'm also willing to move on. I don't still use Windows 98. I don't drive the same car I drove in High School. I don't play the same version of D&D I did 10 years ago. You found your Graceland, enjoy. But don't come here and tell me I'm not allowed to enjoy the latest new hotness because you found things perfect years ago.

MAYBE I really wanted to like 4E (and 3E) and its clear to me its not the kind of thing I consider an improvement or do not consider a better game. Despite other's assertions to the contrary.

Your Milage May Very.

 

[Henry]

They're different games; they can co-exist peacefully...

Here's the part that's in doubt to some people, but thanks to the OGL, it doesn't need to be. Unlike 1e or 2e (and OSRIC even makes that debateable), 3e fortunately can't be "closed off" to people who still want to buy new material for it. As long as they make it clear that there are people out there wanting to buy stuff, and want to spend their money, (and this is the most important part), then there WILL be new material for the game system.

Likely, it'll even be written by WotC professionals, or former WotC pros, as main work or even side work, so even quality won't be a big issue. But if people don't make it known, then the 3rd party designers will assume there's no market for it, and the remaining market will dry up in the face of 4e. So it's really up to the community at this point if they want to see more 3e materials of good quality for sale.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

MAYBE.... "cool" to me is playing the part of a fragile 1st level elven wizard with a sleep spell, no armor ,and a dagger in his boot instead of 1st level eladrin wizard who can teleport around the battefield as a natural ability and packs as much punch as the fighter, ranger or paladin.

MAYBE.... instead of having to make sure all the classes have kewl things to do in combat in order to have fun (according to the designers, who know whats best for me ), I like to run games where each class in question gets a chance to shine in an adventure and use his skills/abilities the others do not have whether its a combat situation or not.

See, you're kind of making it sound here like WotC shut down this option just to make you mad. I think what happened is they weighed the pros and cons of various kinds of class balance and said, "Well, we've got one group of people who hate that they can't play a wizard without sucking at first level and they can't play a bard without sucking in combat period, and we've got another group of people who like adjusting for those comparative weaknesses. Which group should we try to make happy? As much as it sucks, we can't please both."

If you want to play that weak wizard you mentioned, it's an easy house rule: make a level 1 human wizard, and just don't use any at-will or per-encounter spells. Sleep is a first-level "daily" spell already. Voila! It's pretty easy to UNBALANCE things to make a class weaker than the rest.

 

[AZRogue]

To the OP, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I don't agree on several of you balance ... no ... statements, but you seem to have made your mind up.

On the very bright side, there's still a wealth of 3E material waiting out there so your days of playing DnD aren't over. Have fun, and enjoy.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Y'now...assumptions are a funny thing.

MAYBE ....what you consider an improvement, I do not.

MAYBE.... I don't care for my combats to seem like a session of Squad Leader and last the better part of 3 hours. Or even one hour for that matter.

MAYBE.... "cool" to me is playing the part of a fragile 1st level elven wizard with a sleep spell, no armor ,and a dagger in his boot instead of 1st level eladrin wizard who can teleport around the battefield as a natural ability and packs as much punch as the fighter, ranger or paladin.

MAYBE.... instead of having to make sure all the classes have kewl things to do in combat in order to have fun (according to the designers, who know whats best for me ), I like to run games where each class in question gets a chance to shine in an adventure and use his skills/abilities the others do not have whether its a combat situation or not.

MAYBE.... some people need to get off their high horses and realize the game has changed very significantly in the past two editions despite the names remaining the same and just because some of us may not like all the changes does not make us "wrong", "grognards", or "nostalgic".

MAYBE.....just maybe...I happen to LIKE...no REALLY, IT'S NOT NOSTALGIA, BUT ACTUALLY LIKE (!) prior editions of the game. OMG-ZERS, IS THAT LIKE, POSSIBLE? (well, not according to the 3E or 4E designers it seems or a alot of people here on ENWORLD lately! All these years I THOUGHT I was having fun??? But it was just nostalgia. I really *wasn't* having any fun at all

MAYBE I really wanted to like 4E (and 3E) and its clear to me its not the kind of thing I consider an improvement or do not consider a better game. Despite other's assertions to the contrary.

I'm not intending this as sarcasm, but if you like the previous editions of the game -- and in particular, dislike 4e so much -- why on Earth don't you play them? The publication of 4e isn't preventing you from playing 1e any more than the existence of 1e is preventing me from playing 4e. It's a pastime, not a career opening. Sure, it's difficult to become a crossbowman nowadays, for example. But you can still play the game of chess, invented centuries ago, at the same time as someone else is playing a cutting edge video game.

To put it another way, the publication of Dark Heresy doesn't prevent me from playing D&D.

So to reiterate a point I made earlier in this thread -- if 1st Edition is perfect for you (or 2nd, or 3rd, or whatever) -- then what's the problem? You can still play it. So if you want 4th edition to be identical to 1st edition, then play 1st edition. Nobody is stopping you. And if the rules are as perfect for you as you say, then you don't need endless splatbooks. PHB, DMG, dice, imagination. You've already got what you want. Enjoy it!

 

[Monkey Boy]

And fourth edition is speeding up combat.

In all the play experiences I have read about so far I do not see combat speeding up. I know it has been promised by the developers but I am not seeing it in play reports. The combats sound frantic and fast paced but take as much time if not longer to resolve. I recall one enworld reviewer saying they had 5 fights in 5 hours at level 1.

To the OP. How many fights did you have and how long did they take?

 

[Hussar]

You can't blame people for not having those expectations. 1e -> 2e was not a very big jump at least initially. 2e -> 3e was, but a lot of stuff was kept, or an attempt to emulate it was made using the new rules. So there's not so much to support that point of view that it's obvious to all comers.

Late era 3e -> 4e is not a big jump.

Core 1e -> core 2e - very large jump. Massive rewrite of the rules. Late era 1e -> 2e, not a big jump.

Core 2e-> Core 3e - very large jump. Massive rewrite of the rules. Late era 2e->3e, still a big jump

Core 3e-> 4e. Yup. Big jump.

The level of jump really depends on your starting point.

 

[Kordeth]

In all the play experiences I have read about so far I do not see combat speeding up. I know it has been promised by the developers but I am not seeing it in play reports. The combats sound frantic and fast paced but take as much time if not longer to resolve. I recall one enworld reviewer saying they had 5 fights in 5 hours at level 1.

To the OP. How many fights did you have and how long did they take?

Remember that the people at DDXP are playing:

1) A completely new game,
2) for the first time,
3) without access to the full rulebooks,
4) in a crowded, loud convention hall,
5) with a bunch of strangers.

Given those facts, the fact that people are reporting the combat still only takes about as long as a typical 3E combat, with more rounds worth of stuff going on, is a pretty remarkable statement of how much the game has, in fact, sped up.

 

[Greylock]

And it's a computer game....

Castles and Crusades anyone?

Mike

Hey, qstor... You're being paged over at Kay's place.

 

[AZRogue]

I find it hard to empathise with the POV that "I don't like that they changed X". 4E isn't supposed to be 3E with a few changes, it's a totally new game. They haven't changed anything; they've written a completely brand new game. Or rather - they've changed everything. That, to me, is what "new edition" means; I don't really want to buy 3E again because I already have it.

I certainly understand that people may not like the new game; that's cool. But not liking it simply for not being the same as 3E doesn't make sense to me. Were people hoping for 3E to be released with a new cover, perhaps? If you don't have it, pick up the leatherbound 3E collectors editions - they'll make a great 4E for you: exactly the same, but with a different cover!

It's a new game. Not the old game changed a bit.

This is my opinion completely.

I never, EVER, bought a 3.5 book. Why? Because I already bought 3rd Edition. I was, actually, pretty insulted over 3.5 and my group boycotted it completely. I don't understand why anyone would ever buy something they already own, with just some minor tweaks.

But I really like 4th Edition, not because I agree with what they've done in all cases, because I don't, but because it is actually different. For those who think that it lacks the "spirit" of DnD I would have to say that's a personal matter of taste, because I happen to see a lot of things they've done that take me back to 1st Edition, or even OD&D. It's much more old school than people give it credit for.

And it's different. I don't own it and if I buy it I'll be buying something different, which is the largest draw. If they make a 4.5, though, I will NOT buy that. Just as I didn't buy 3.5.