D&D 4E I have seen the coming of 4e...

[Fifth Element]

For me it's more that 4E doesn't seem like D&D. I mean there's wizards, orcs, to hit vs AC etc

Exactly. There are still wizards, orcs, essentially the same mechanics, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like D&D to me.

but the tone has changed completely. It's more of a radical departure from the previous editions.

There has never been a single tone in all previous editions of D&D. I submit that the default "tone" of 3E is very different from 2E. Probably a bigger difference than between 3E and 4E.

 

[Ximenes088]

Dungeons and Dragons is not just a game it is a commercial entity. Changing the structure of that entity in such a fashion that it only has passing resemblance to its previous incarnations dilutes the brand.

And sure the argument here can be, "Let the old guys play there old game, this is new D&D for a new era." But who is this game appealing to specifically? What is the long-term viability? How does it relate to the past incarnations of D&D beyond name and familiar concepts (classes, levels, races, etc.)? Is it D&D in name only?

If there was a clear set of elements universally accepted as "authentic D&D", these sort of questions wouldn't exist. It's simply the case that different people point to different sacred cows. What's necessary herd culling to one is wholesale slaughter to another. I can see how some would find the butchery of Vancian magic and day-based resource management to be a gutting of the game, but I'm personally delighted to see these things go.

The only thing that was axed in 4e that was vital to my prior gaming was Vancian magic- and it was vital in the same sense a colon was vital. You're not *happy* you have a colon and you try not to think too hard about your colon, but it's necessary to the operation of your system. 4e promises to get rid of my colon and make me sweat pure ambrosia. Their operation may or may not work, but I can hardly fault them their ambition.

 

[Toryx]

I side with those who say that 4e is a completely different game. Which is fine. It's obviously appealing to people, and I think there are a lot of good ideas in there.

My preference would have been for them to take 3.5, smooth out the problems, add some new ideas to it, and given me a new version of what previously existed. It doesn't look as though they've done that though, so I'll just have to stick to 3.5 as it exists when I want to play that game, and play 4e when I want to play something different. It's no big deal to me...it's just not what I was hoping for.

In the meantime, what I expect to do for myself is take some of the ideas that I like in 4e (No more racial ability score negatives, better of two scores modifying Fort, Will and Reflex, maybe some of the new healing and death rules...) and try to apply them to 3.5 without unbalancing things.

Just because they did something different, it doesn't mean I can't still enjoy what has come before.

 

[Dragonblade]

4e promises to get rid of my colon and make me sweat pure ambrosia.

Great sentence there!

 

[Psion]

There has never been a single tone in all previous editions of D&D. I submit that the default "tone" of 3E is very different from 2E. Probably a bigger difference than between 3E and 4E.

I don't agree. To me, the 2e->3e shift was mostly about execution; "how do we do the same thing better/more consistently?" There's that in the 3e->4e, but there's also an apparent concerted effort for reimagination that wasn't there before.

 

[FourthBear]

My preference would have been for them to take 3.5, smooth out the problems, add some new ideas to it, and given me a new version of what previously existed. It doesn't look as though they've done that though, so I'll just have to stick to 3.5 as it exists when I want to play that game, and play 4e when I want to play something different. It's no big deal to me...it's just not what I was hoping for.

The good thing is that there is plenty of 3e and 3.5e compatible material out there. And, of course, making up your own stuff is half the fun.

For myself, I'm very glad they're giving the game a thorough overhaul. I hated 3.5e and 2e, as I felt that neither of them was worth the cost of buying the core books all over again. If I'm going to be buying core rules, standard expansions (like the dragon book, the fiend book, etc.), it should be a significantly different game to justify itself. I wouldn't buy 3.75e.

 

[JesterOC]

You are correct in that. And reading through the description and comparing it to the older versions, it could be that it was always supposed to auto-hit, but it just wasn't spelled (no pun intended) out earlier.

I played a pre-release version of 3E and it had a magic missile that missed. They also had exception based monsters( a dog that when it attacked would hold onto you and slow you down is what I remember most. When the real MM came out I was disapointed ). Oh and the mosnters had with XP values not CR's. Damn I guess it was almost like playing a pre pre 4E!

JesterOC

 

[delericho]

As far as lava being instant death? I thought one of the points in 4e was nothing was automatic anymore?

I'm going to hazard a guess that they weren't entirely serious about that. I mean, I do like "Fire & Brimstone" and all, and I'm happy they got the nod, but the game does include various creatures who should be able to survive in lava (fire giants, red dragons, fire elementals, salamanders, pyroclastic dragons, efreeti...). And then there's the whole "fewer absolutes" thing. Oh, and that "Design & Development" column where they said that they didn't really do humour...

Basically, it all strikes me as them giving a nod to a fan-created product that they had liked, and showing that they're still gamers after all... but not necessarily 100% accurate.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

The only thing that was axed in 4e that was vital to my prior gaming was Vancian magic- and it was vital in the same sense a colon was vital. You're not *happy* you have a colon and you try not to think too hard about your colon, but it's necessary to the operation of your system. 4e promises to get rid of my colon and make me sweat pure ambrosia. Their operation may or may not work, but I can hardly fault them their ambition.

Actually, my colon was completely removed in 1991, and I haven't missed the blasted thing once. Almost killed me, actually, before it was removed. It's not at all necessary to the operation of your system. Getting rid of the megacolon of Vancian magic is kind of like giving D&D a very timely ileostomy, IMO.

 

[qstor]

Opinions aside, at least qstor -tried- the game out to test if his feelings about 4e were right. Good post qstor.

Thanks

One thing I forgot to mention was my reaction to the portion of the main 4e presentation on the "digital gaming platform" One of the questioners asked how WOTC was going to manage the load on the server given that they've had problems with the RPGA database. I think the questioner was more referring to the overall computer gaming problems WOTC has had like Etools but didn't mention it. My gut feeling is with all the bells and whistles in the digital platform that there WILL be a lot of problems with it unless WOTC out sources it to another company. But that remains to be seen.

My of my friends said to me in an e-mail this morning the argument of 4e vs 3e(other editions) is like arguing over pancakes vs eggs for breakfast. He said he'd play 4e with friends (pancakes) but might like eggs sometimes. For me its more than that, its if you're making D&D or a new car for example if you name it say a Ford, then you know what the Ford brand is. You you wouldn't expect it to look like a Honda or Buick and you know that brands history. And so when you go to buy D&D you expect it to be somewhat like D&D of editions past and expect that WOTC did some marketing tests of fans to know what fans wanted changed in 3.5 and what they think doesn't work in the current rules set. Just like Ford might test market a new car for production and it the test car doesn't hold up to fans expectations then it won't go into full production.

Yesterday night I was thinking of Ryan Dancey's essay on travelling to TSR's Lake Geneva warehouse and what it meant to him to help save TSR by having it bought out by WOTC. I wondered if 4e was NEEDED to save D&D or rather if it was done simpley because SOMEONE felt a new edition was needed to make money rather than solve an inherant problem with rules balance.

Mike