I hope stat generation is addressed

[Treebore]

The whole rule book is there to create balance, games have rules so that there can be balance. I do believe Rogues and Wizards are equal, they are not equal in every task but they are equal overall. D&D and other RPGs are very advanced games so it is impossible to completely balance every thing but in almost all cases it is balanced. The rules for making your own items are there so you can make sure that items of equal value are of equal power.



The problem is that they would have been happy with the characters if it hadn't been for the DM increasing the difficulty making the characters nonviable. So you as a DM are forcing them to create more powerful characters then they want to have by allowing the other persons create more powerful characters. This can also cause the persons with the more powerful characters to not have as much fun because they constantly have to save the weaker characters from peril. Nothing here says it is less fun and some players might enjoy being the weak character with the powerful characters but the major flaw in your quest for removing "DM influence" in creating characters is that players generally want it.

As i see it with just choosing your stats it will either come to players at different power levels or being the same as point buy seeing as the players decide to have about the same power level, you just didn't set a exact number.
I have no problem with you or anyone else having higher ability scores. What bothers me is adjusting the difficulty because of the higher scores which is basically negating the need for higher scores and you could just have stayed with lower scores and lower difficulty. So you are creating more work for you and the only effect of it is higher numbers on the character sheets.

Now I personally roll stats in my current campaign that I am DMing and in other campaigns i have played in. We roll 4d6 removing the lowest roll and we can re roll if no score is above 13 and/or if the total ability modifier is 0 or less. I like rolling because the actual stats don't matter that much to me, i can create almost any character concept I want and it is allot easier to arrange scores then consider how high i should increase each score in point buy. I think i would prefer set values over pointbuy and i don't mind if it is 15 or 55pointbuy as long as it is the same for all the characters.

I think you underestimate the ability of players to make good characters. Besides, if the rule books were as "ideal" as you seem to indicate why are the random methods of generation offered?

14 years of doing it thsi way with over 30 players is in no way conclusive about the whole RPG community, but no one ever made a bad character for themselves. They made ones they were completely happy with. So I would guess that most of the RPG community would have the same experience if they gave it a try.

 

[Treebore]

I don't understand why you think there needs to be a rule to allow you to ignore the rules. Deciding which rules are going to be used, which are going to be house-ruled, and which are going to be ignored is surely part of the pre-game discussion between the players & DM.


There you go - it looks like people don't need a rule in the PHB or DMG to allow them to do this after all.

Your argument works well until you visit the WOTC boards and see all the people who insist on doing it 100% RAW. Not to mention a certain "official" group of RPGers.

So yes, a rule does need to be made.

Nice try.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I'd almost rather be allowed the option to strengthen ability scores rather than gain levels with XP. Would that be too much of a departure? Is there a poor bovine that I'm advocating the slaughter of?

 

[nerfherder]

Your argument works well until you visit the WOTC boards and see all the people who insist on doing it 100% RAW. Not to mention a certain "official" group of RPGers.

So yes, a rule does need to be made.

Nice try.

OK, opening the PHB to the first page:

CHARACTER CREATION BASICS
Follow these steps to create a beginning, 1st-level character. You will need a photocopy of the character sheet, a pencil, some scratch paper, and four six-sided dice.

0. CHECK WITH YOUR DUNGEON MASTER
Your Dungeon Master (DM) may have house rules or campaign standards that vary from the standard rules.

There you go - official approval to generate characters however you wish, with DM approval. If you are the DM, then you can tell your players before the game starts "I have a house-rule: pick whatever ability scores you want, up to 18". If you are a player, then discuss with the DM and all the other players that you'd like to try a house-rule where you can pick your own ability score.

I'm not really sure who you mean by the "official RPGers".

 

[nerfherder]

I'd almost rather be allowed the option to strengthen ability scores rather than gain levels with XP. Would that be too much of a departure? Is there a poor bovine that I'm advocating the slaughter of?

I don't think so - you've been able to do it with magical librams since AD&D, at least, and of course 3E introduced raising 1 point every fourth level. There is certainly precedent for ability scores increasing.

 

[Treebore]

OK, opening the PHB to the first page:



There you go - official approval to generate characters however you wish, with DM approval. If you are the DM, then you can tell your players before the game starts "I have a house-rule: pick whatever ability scores you want, up to 18". If you are a player, then discuss with the DM and all the other players that you'd like to try a house-rule where you can pick your own ability score.

I'm not really sure who you mean by the "official RPGers".

RPGA is the "official RPGers".

Your point still proves my point, especially with "RAW only" DM's. Plus the RPGA.

This game is supposed to be about fun, playing PC's with stats I don't like are not fun. Doing point buys and being limited to a pre conceived sense of balance, which isn't my sense of balance still annoys me. If I like playing "Conan", or "Doc Savage", or other exceptionally capable characters I should be allowed to.

Still within "reasonable limits", which by game design are in the 3 to 18 range. Not 32 point buys, not 3d6 only, rolled in order. What I want to play with. The DM gets to control the world within a set of rules, let the player control their character creation as much as possible. Letting them choose their stats however they wish, within the 3 to 18 range, +/- racial modifiers, isn't game breaking. Just add HP's and up AC's. Maybe even throw in one or two more opponents. Not hard to deal with. Certainly not a game breaking proposition.


Certainly worth writing into the base rules options.

 

[Crothian]

Your argument works well until you visit the WOTC boards and see all the people who insist on doing it 100% RAW. Not to mention a certain "official" group of RPGers.

So yes, a rule does need to be made.

Nice try.

Not for us though. This isn't a game of peer pressure and what everyone else does in there game really doesn't matter to what I do in mine or what you do in yours. I don't see any need to have this as a rule and force it down people's throats.

 

[Treebore]

Not for us though. This isn't a game of peer pressure and what everyone else does in there game really doesn't matter to what I do in mine or what you do in yours. I don't see any need to have this as a rule and force it down people's throats.

Exactly.

Why should point buys or 3d6 be allowed to be shoved down anyones throat? So having an official option allowing more creative freedom of a players character, by the player, should definitely be among the "suggested" rules for stat generation.

That is definitely the "heart" of my whole position.

 

[Moonshade]

Aside from superheroes, there are certainly plenty of fantasy characters either in, or close to, the six eighteens range. Hell, Alias from the FR has six seventeens precisely, and she's actually non-offensive by FR standards!

I've never seen the official stats of Alias, but in her case that unnatural balance would make some sense. She wasn't born, she was a construct created by a cabal of powerful villains to be the perfect servant; they would have tried to give her abilities above the average. Is she non-offensive because she hasn't really mattered to the setting at all, just happened to appear in a few novels, or because FR is full of NPCs with all 17+ stats?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Why should point buys or 3d6 be allowed to be shoved down anyones throat? So having an official option allowing more creative freedom of a players character, by the player, should definitely be among the "suggested" rules for stat generation.

This assumes that the goal is for the player to 1.) start with a PC concept they're envisioning and then 2.) create the PC.

That's fine, but it's not the only way to approach the game. It's also fun (and a creative challenge) to start with 3d6 (or 4d6 drop lowest, etc) and see what you end up with, then play that PC. You can get some interesting PCs that way, too. For example, the Fighter in my Lost City campaign (see link in sig) has a 10 Str and a 16 Cha. He is finding that using his Cha to influence and lead NPC followers is an important and poweful aspect of his character. In the same game, I have an Elf F/MU with an 11 Str, 12 Int, and 17 (!) Wis. The player rolled those stats, but didn't want to play a Cleric, so she went with an Elf. The Cleric PC has a 10 Wis.

My position is that is depends on how you approach the game. If you look at it as "the players are supposed to have a creative vision and then work towards building that vision" then picking stats works great. If you look at is as "here's a game with some parameters and rules -- how can I be creative within the parameters I'm given" then rolling for stats is just part of the fun.

(Point buy is kind of a middle ground. You have a the "player vision" first, but there's still some constraints on them. Of course, there's probably constraints on "pick your stats," too. That is: pick your stats...within reason. If I'm running a "player vision" game, I'd go with pick your stats, within reason. That's just me. In general, I like the "roll and be creative with what you get" approach, the best.)

Anyway, I agree with you that "pick you stats" is a valid option that should be listed with the others.