I hope stat generation is addressed

[Draumr]

These days I prefer to use neither dice nor point-buy as I find both inherently flawed.

All characters in my game start with the following array of dice results, which can be assigned any way a player wishes under the limitation that each score should have three dice assigned:
6,6,6,6,6
5,5,5,5,5
4,4,4,4
3,3
2,2

This gives a total of 81 points, with a 13.5 average (same as Psion's card system out of interest). The ability total is also positioned in the middle of e.g. the typical Iron Heroes point-buy array which usually gives you an aggregate of between 78 & 84.

I prefer this method as there is no randomness and no discrimination towards higher scores (as with point buy). There is also enough flexibility for players to generally get what they want or need for certain character concepts while being absolutely fair.

I would love to see something like this in the core rules.

 

[Thundershield]

This game is supposed to be about fun, playing PC's with stats I don't like are not fun. Doing point buys and being limited to a pre conceived sense of balance, which isn't my sense of balance still annoys me. If I like playing "Conan", or "Doc Savage", or other exceptionally capable characters I should be allowed to.

Still within "reasonable limits", which by game design are in the 3 to 18 range. Not 32 point buys, not 3d6 only, rolled in order. What I want to play with. The DM gets to control the world within a set of rules, let the player control their character creation as much as possible. Letting them choose their stats however they wish, within the 3 to 18 range, +/- racial modifiers, isn't game breaking. Just add HP's and up AC's. Maybe even throw in one or two more opponents. Not hard to deal with. Certainly not a game breaking proposition.

Certainly worth writing into the base rules options.

First off, Point-Buy is about characters being in control of their characters. All you do by setting the amount of points available is set the power level of the starting game. If you let players wholly decide what stats they want, you have little control of it, and thus can't enforce various settings where paragon humans and dwarves make up the heroes, but where heroes instead have clear weaknesses or are less than perfect somehow.

Either way, Point-Buy is a way for the players to have control over their character's design and how to tailor them for their purpose with the DM only setting a cap on what he wants for the setting. If the setting is for average joes, give them 16 points... If you want to let your players have all-18s, give them 96 points, because you don't HAVE to use all the points. It's that simple.

The reason they'll just put 28-point buy or 32-point or whatever in the Rule Book is because it's the recommended way of generating characters. The game was balanced around that, and it lets players get an impression of "strong human vs. weak human" or "robust dwarf vs. frail elf", while still keeping things within reasonable norms (for a fantasy game).

Any DM worth his salt can house-rule the character generation process to fit his setting, including adjusting the amount of points given in Point-Buy if needed.

Really, it is that simple.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

The poll provides only results of two extremes. Either the players get ALL control, or the DM gets ALL control by having the final word. It's just not that simple.

Firstly, some will depend on just how the 4E system changes things. Stat determination may not hold the same level of importance.

Second, there is an astonishing level of self-deception about stats these days. They are perceived as, or at least treated as if they might be, the be-all/end-all, the make-or-break element of the character and the game, and that's just not true.

Third, with or without their misconceptions people place different emphasis on what they want their method of character creation to actually DO for them. Some want it to cater to ABSOLUTE player control of character creation and min/maxing. Some want it to simply MANDATE absolute equity among players [God forbid anyone should EVER have more fun than ME]. Some actually want to REMOVE a degree of player control in order to facilitate the DM's overall control of power levels in the game. Some want to remove a degree of player control in order to spark player creativity or facilitate seeing more variety among characters of the same class.

The fact that there is a HUGE variety of character generation methods right now is proof in and of itself that one size just does not fit all. Unless the system is designed to work with one and ONLY one method any default method that is provided will IMMEDIATELY be changed for something that accomodates individual preferences - just like it is now.

 

[Crothian]

Exactly.

Why should point buys or 3d6 be allowed to be shoved down anyones throat? So having an official option allowing more creative freedom of a players character, by the player, should definitely be among the "suggested" rules for stat generation.

That is definitely the "heart" of my whole position.

But that would open it up too much. They can't put all options for character generation in the book. So they put in the two most common: Dice and point buy. If you want this in there then we should also have the three Dragon anti method, the stat draft method, and all the others in there.

 

[Sun Knight]

DMs set the power level.

Players allocate where that power goes.

That is how I see it. In the current campaign I am in the DM set 28 points for ability score generation. He didn't dictate how I can spend my points, I did. I have a very competent wizard/fighter with 3 tens, 2 fourteens, and 1 sixteen.

 

[Nifft]

DMs set the power level.

Players allocate where that power goes.

Yep yep yep.

The only time one party has all the power & control is when one is "partying" with one's self.

As soon as you let someone else into the room, you have to compromise.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Treebore]

DMs set the power level.

Players allocate where that power goes.

That is how I see it. In the current campaign I am in the DM set 28 points for ability score generation. He didn't dictate how I can spend my points, I did. I have a very competent wizard/fighter with 3 tens, 2 fourteens, and 1 sixteen.

I see "control of attributes as being control of power" as a myth. A false perception. Then again, I am used to allowing high stats, and find "dealing with it" very easy. Some more Hp's here, a couple of more points of AC there, an extra opponent or two here and there, etc...

Still, nothing that takes the game to a "new level of power". At most its like adjusting encounters for an additional character being added to the party. Usually something less.

Definitely nothing game breaking.

Then again, I don't like "low powered", if I did Harn would be my favorite system.

Still, I think WOTC should quit making it sound like restricting attributes is a necessity. The game is designed to, and works fine with, attributes within the 3 to 18 +/- racial mods just fine. The character creation rules should stress this more, instead of stressing over control and regulation.

If attributes really mess with the game so much, get rid of the attribute enhancing spells.

 

[Sun Knight]

I think that 28 points in wieghted point buy is plenty of points for a beginning adventurer to have. Sure, his stats will increase over time but that is to be expected. I don't consider 28 points as low powered. Definitely not high powered, but a good middle ground.

 

[Thundershield]

I see "control of attributes as being control of power" as a myth. A false perception. Then again, I am used to allowing high stats, and find "dealing with it" very easy. Some more Hp's here, a couple of more points of AC there, an extra opponent or two here and there, etc...

Still, nothing that takes the game to a "new level of power". At most its like adjusting encounters for an additional character being added to the party. Usually something less.

Definitely nothing game breaking.

Then again, I don't like "low powered", if I did Harn would be my favorite system.

Still, I think WOTC should quit making it sound like restricting attributes is a necessity. The game is designed to, and works fine with, attributes within the 3 to 18 +/- racial mods just fine. The character creation rules should stress this more, instead of stressing over control and regulation.

If attributes really mess with the game so much, get rid of the attribute enhancing spells.

The deal here is that the stats are designed with the concept in mind that stats go from 3 to 18, and that people have strong points and well as weak spots. The various systems used to generate ability scores were created to simulate this diversity in people.

You could simply let players choose their own stats, but that could (in theory) result in players always playing all-18s characters every game, which would quickly get a little boring or make ability scores less of a flavor factor.

To let players experience the diversity of stats - what it means to have a 16 compared to having an 8 - the game suggests methods that make such variety likely. If the game suggested, as you proselytize us with, that players should simply pick their own ability scores, what should keep the newbie player from going all-18s? And when the other players see that, they might go that way too, since why would they wanna take second place?

No, rather give them some clear guidelines that still allow them to create a wide variety of characters. Later, when players get more experienced, they'll introduce house rules all by themselves, possibly (or probably) including different ways of generating ability scores. But let them start with some easy-to-use guidelines and not "do whatever you want with ability scores"... That hardly gives them a feel for it.

 

[Mort]

I see "control of attributes as being control of power" as a myth. A false perception. Then again, I am used to allowing high stats, and find "dealing with it" very easy. Some more Hp's here, a couple of more points of AC there, an extra opponent or two here and there, etc...

You keep saying that you find dealing with high stats easy, but you haven't answered the harder question - how do you deal with widely varying stats in the same group without it seeming ridiculously cheesy and/or heavy handed?

by ridiculously cheesy I mean for example:

1) somehow the lower stated people find "power boosting items" etc. to compensate - sure this will work, but it means the stat generation was meaningless in the first place.

2) Singling out the higher stated people more in combat - how does the universe know to do this (and besides how is this fun for the others).

Sure this is not a problem in a group that knows each other well (they should all be able to pick stats comfortably), but that's not always the case - what about a group of newbies or a simply a new group?

Seems to me if you let these groups assign stats you'll get one or maybe two players dictating the power level to the rest of the group - and is that any better than the DM dictating the power level?