I hope stat generation is addressed

Should players have total control of PC stats?

  • Yes, players should have complete control of character ability scores.

    Votes: 47 43.1%
  • No, the DM should control PC creation, especially stats.

    Votes: 62 56.9%

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Honestly, I'd even argue that 4d6 is player control, as its the player rolling it.

In fact, the only thing I'd call DM control is a DM handing out premade PCs or stats.


So your saying players control how the dice rolls? I seriously doubt that, because I have rarely gotten the straight six's I told the dice to give me. Every time I have rolled. If you know how to control how the dice rolls please teach me. I live near enough to Vegas.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Treebore said:
Yeah, but the excuse I have seen for controlling stats is that it makes PC's too powerful, it breaks the game, ruins the power curve, etc...
If the DM is good then these are reasons, not excuses.

If the DM sucks then stat control won't help.
 


Treebore said:
They are not mutually contradictory. They admit the FACT that the DM is the final arbiter, because without the DM the game doesn't happen. So the DM, by default if for no other reason, has to ultimately agree with how the character is generated. The DM has to ultimately agree with the ruels set being used.

So its admitting to the reality, not being mutually contradictory.
OK, but if I say pick any number and then keep saying pick again until you say "3", then you never really had any control over the number you picked.
 




Treebore said:
So your saying players control how the dice rolls? I seriously doubt that, because I have rarely gotten the straight six's I told the dice to give me. Every time I have rolled. If you know how to control how the dice rolls please teach me. I live near enough to Vegas.
Its, literally, putting the ability scores in their hands. Random? Yes. Didn't say it wasn't.

I must say I love random rolling for stats. Not forcing them into order, but rolling and then going from there. Point buy is good, too, but I just can't get behind a player just deciding to have their stats at a certain number because they want it that way rather than at least SOME rules governing it.

I LIKE seeing lower scores here and there, and have found that its the 8s and 6s and 9s that make the character as much as, if not MORE than the 18s.
 

Until stats are generated how the player wants, its the DM that is controlling the character. It is the DM deciding the fundamentals. It is the DM straightjacketing the players.

Now we see another good example of where this anti-DM madness that cropped up at some point in 3rd edition is taking us.

If the DM tells the players to use point buy, that's too limiting. That's 'DM Control' over your character. That's a straightjacket. Or so we are told. There is no way to answer this poll, because neither answer makes the slightest bit of sense. If I tell you, make a first level character with 32 pt buy, I'm not controlling your character creation.

When the character turns in his stat sheet and it reads:

Ranger 1st Level
HP: 76 AC: 50 Damage: 1d8+86
STR: 182 (really strong)
DEX: 88 (not that agile)
CON: 147 (tough)
INT: 80 (not that bright)
WIS: 103 (cunning)
CHR: 138 (handsome but brooding)

I'm expected to adjust my campaign to accomodate him? I'd be attempted to introduce batman as a 6th level fighter with stats in the 16-20 range and allow him to squash in succession, Batman, Conan, John Carter of Mars, and Aragorn the Ranger in quick succession - likely with single hits. Are we having fun yet? Am I cramping your character concept.

Even all 18's is probablimatic. You actually need all 18's to carry your character concept? What sort of character concept is that? Je suis Batman? Aren't you at the wrong table? Don't you want to be at that table were the referee is running a Supers game at letting one of his PC's be Galactus?

Point buy is the mechanic designed to let a character generate stats however the player wants within what is reasonable for the game system. I can sympathize with the player who wants a high scale, high magic, high concept, high action adventure, super-heroic game with a 32 or 36 pt. buy, and the DM is set on a low scale, gritty, earthy game with a 24 pt buy. There is room for negoitation there, although to be frank, its largely just number inflation for its own sake. (I can remember a game where the DM let all the PC's have all 18's, but then found that to keep things 'balanced' so did every NPC right down to the ordinary member of the watch.) But a player just comes to me and says, "Give me the stats I want (or else you are unfairly controlling my character." No, I have no sympathy for that.

What is the next step in this logic? Obviously, if the DM is straight jacketting a character by limiting their stats to a certain range (using pt. buy), then he's also straight jacketing character creation by limiting level, by limiting the player to a particular range of classes, races, or class abilities. Invent your own powers? I guess we should all let everyone play Galactus/members of the Authority, regardless of game system or genre.

I would like to point out that players are NOT allowed to do this with skill or feat selection. During character creation you recieve a number of slots to spend on feats, and a limited supply of skill points to spend on skills (often limited by class selection). The comparable argument is that players should be allowed to set any skill bonuses that they want, and select as many feats as they think that they need to be the character that they want to play. So, by the same argument that I should set my attributes however I like without limit, I should have 20 ranks in all the skills, and start with 40 different feats.

Really, this whole discussion is one short step from suggesting that when the DM set's the DC of a task, or determines the consequences of success or failure, he's forcing the player into a straightjacket. You don't want a DM. You just want someone to validate your success.
 
Last edited:

Cam Banks said:
Point buy = player empowerment.

Rolling dice = luck.

Cheers,
Cam


DM assigning point buy is DM power, not player power. Player deciding to use point buy is player power.

Player power is player choosing their stats, or method of generating stats, period.

Dice rolling=luck, I agree with, but is still DM control if the Dm is the one who says to use that method. Its player control if that is the method a player chooses.


So hopefully 4E will offer a range of stat generation methods, including just insert what you want, with the DM approving of them. Then hopefully DM's will allow the full range, giving true character creation control to the player.

The reality is the DM controls everything else, the NPC's, the monsters, the numbers of the monsters, what level the game will be played at, etc... So giving the players total creative freedom with their PC's is a small concession.

I agree that beginning characters should also have to stay within the 3 to 18 range plus racial modifiers.
 

Remove ads

Top