I hope stat generation is addressed

[Nifft]

I am the DM. I am in total control.
I generate the stats, the party's class composition, and the character's back-stories.
Now, I just need to generate some players...

Cheers, -- N

 

[amethal]

I hope they find a way to not make us have to look up stats on a chart

I like the True 20 method, where your modifier = your stat. Nice and easy.

I can also live with a simple formula like modifier = 1\2 (stat - 10) [with the standard rounding down of fractions]

Personally, I generally choose my character concept before I generate my stats, so its a real pain if the stats won't let me play the character I want to play. Its why I like point buy.

 

[Treebore]

Now we see another good example of where this anti-DM madness that cropped up at some point in 3rd edition is taking us.

If the DM tells the players to use point buy, that's too limiting. That's 'DM Control' over your character. That's a straightjacket. Or so we are told. There is no way to answer this poll, because neither answer makes the slightest bit of sense. If I tell you, make a first level character with 32 pt buy, I'm not controlling your character creation.

When the character turns in his stat sheet and it reads:

Ranger 1st Level
HP: 76 AC: 50 Damage: 1d8+86
STR: 182 (really strong)
DEX: 88 (not that agile)
CON: 147 (tough)
INT: 80 (not that bright)
WIS: 103 (cunning)
CHR: 138 (handsome but brooding)

I'm expected to adjust my campaign to accomodate him? I'd be attempted to introduce batman as a 6th level fighter with stats in the 16-20 range and allow him to squash in succession, Batman, Conan, John Carter of Mars, and Aragorn the Ranger in quick succession - likely with single hits. Are we having fun yet? Am I cramping your character concept.

Even all 18's is probablimatic. You actually need all 18's to carry your character concept? What sort of character concept is that? Je suis Batman? Aren't you at the wrong table? Don't you want to be at that table were the referee is running a Supers game at letting one of his PC's be Galactus?

Point buy is the mechanic designed to let a character generate stats however the player wants within what is reasonable for the game system. I can sympathize with the player who wants a high scale, high magic, high concept, high action adventure, super-heroic game with a 32 or 36 pt. buy, and the DM is set on a low scale, gritty, earthy game with a 24 pt buy. There is room for negoitation there, although to be frank, its largely just number inflation for its own sake. (I can remember a game where the DM let all the PC's have all 18's, but then found that to keep things 'balanced' so did every NPC right down to the ordinary member of the watch.) But a player just comes to me and says, "Give me the stats I want (or else you are unfairly controlling my character." No, I have no sympathy for that.

What is the next step in this logic? Obviously, if the DM is straight jacketting a character by limiting their stats to a certain range (using pt. buy), then he's also straight jacketing character creation by limiting level, by limiting the player to a particular range of classes, races, or class abilities. Invent your own powers? I guess we should all let everyone play Galactus/members of the Authority, regardless of game system or genre.

I would like to point out that players are NOT allowed to do this with skill or feat selection. During character creation you recieve a number of slots to spend on feats, and a limited supply of skill points to spend on skills (often limited by class selection). The comparable argument is that players should be allowed to set any skill bonuses that they want, and select as many feats as they think that they need to be the character that they want to play. So, by the same argument that I should set my stats however I like without limit, I should have 20 ranks in all the skills, and start with 40 different feats.

Really, this whole discussion is one short step from suggesting that when the DM set's the DC of a task, or determines the consequences of success or failure, he's forcing the player into a straightjacket. You don't want a DM. You just want someone to validate your success.

Point buy is not for the game system, it is for the comfort of the DM. DM's are the ones I see panicking at the thought of characters with 18's. DM's are the ones I see/hear complaining about high stats. Players love them.

The game system is designed to handle stats of any range up to whatever the max is. Above 45. So the limitations is totally for the comfort zone of the DM.

My comfort zone, for 14+ years, has been whatever the characters roll/create, within the 3 to 18 begining range. If the players want and have high stats I adjust. More Hp's for the monsters, higher AC's with better equipment or clerical/mage spells enhancing them, whatever I have to do to make the encounter challenging.

Not hard to deal with.

I find it funny that people are willing to give players creative control of the characters with regards to skill and feat selection, but balk at giving them freedom to generate their stats however they want, to truly have the character they want. Not to mention HP control. I've always favored max HP's for every level.

Then again I am comfortable with characters being powerful. Easy to do after RIFTS or playing "Super Heroes Games" where "powerful" is taken to many new levels. Its all just a matter of scaling.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I find it funny that people are willing to give players creative control of the characters with regards to skill and feat selection, but balk at giving them freedom to generate their stats however they want, to truly have the character they want.

Who is allowing the players to take any feat they want, at any level they want? Or to decide how many skill points they should have?

 

[Mort]

Point buy is not for the game system, it is for the comfort of the DM. DM's are the ones I see panicking at the thought of characters with 18's. DM's are the ones I see/hear complaining about high stats. Players love them.

You keep concentrating on DM vs player empowerment but you're still missing the "multiple PC's" issue. Point buy allows the players to build characters the way they want them and still be in the same relative power range as the other players - that's one of its big strengths and to me makes it better than rolling.

If the players all know each other and trust each other, and more importantly, know what power level they are all comfortable with, just picking stats will work fine - but in a new group or with new players some better structure is needed.

Then again I am comfortable with characters being powerful. Easy to do after RIFTS or playing "Super Heroes Games" where "powerful" is taken to many new levels. Its all just a matter of scaling.

I agree that beginning characters should also have to stay within the 3 to 18 range plus racial modifiers.

One of my big problems with RIFTS is that there is no consistancy with the power level of OCC's. I like powerful games, I like playing powerful characters, but when one PC is head and shoulders above another - it's usually no fun. In otherwords it's not a power issue - it's a balance between PC's issue.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Seriously, to give players total control, you do not need D&D, in fact do not use a rule set at all as that constrains them too much. Sit down with your friends around an empty table, and just talk to each other. Don't use dice, paper, or anything else (snacks are fine) ...

And when you are done being ridiculous, come back to D&D and set limits on how characters are created.

 

[Celebrim]

Then again I am comfortable with characters being powerful. Easy to do after RIFTS or playing "Super Heroes Games" where "powerful" is taken to many new levels. Its all just a matter of scaling.

I've played RIFTS. I don't think I've ever encountered a system which is so unfavorable to player control while still having the fluff of being super powered. I remember joking that we could (literally) jump from outer space and survive reentry without a scratch, (literally) turn people into jelly by thumping them with one finger or giving them wedgies, and yet the only thing that kept any of us alive at any point in the game session was pure DM fiat. I've never been more bored as player in an RPG. When it came down to it, it was a tragicly comic game system and I felt more heroic and superpowered playing 1st edition AD&D characters with 3d6 stat generation.

It is all just a matter of scaling. That's exactly one of the problems here. I'm not going to deal with great big huge numbers just because, I've got some player of Yugi-Oh-E-Oh who thinks big numbers are sweet. STR 18,000,000? Why? Why should I bother going to the work? Besides which, numbers don't scale equally. You scale things up, and wierd things will happen to your system's balance. Take a game like MtG (for an example of known balance issues). If I scale the starting life (or starting cards) or anything else down or up, strategies change accordingly. If you have a starting life of 40 and just 7 starting cards, forget playing aggro. Your opponent will always stablize before you get there. If I put it down to 5, whole strategies disappear and lucky wins are more common. Numbers hang in a delicate balance. I'm not going to screw with the game just because.

 

[Celebrim]

One of my big problems with RIFTS is that there is no consistancy with the power level of OCC's.

That's one of many issues with RIFTS. Another big issue is that RIFTS actually does physics and event arbritration less realistically than just about any other game system I've experienced. The scale is just all whacked up. The whole MDC thing creates really funky problems where ordinary objects are effectively made of tissue paper. You want to see a prime example of how number inflation can ultimately destroy the playability of a system, just look at that Paladium system.

 

[Cam Banks]

If the game only has one method of determining ability scores, such as point buy, then the problem is solved. It's not DM control, its the way the game is designed to work.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Doug McCrae]

It can work with the right players, which is most of them I think.

However it's pushing against one of the great strengths of D&D - balance.