D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

[Imaro]

Not if hit-points aren't meat. If they have an absurdly high AC from non-armor sources, you could narrate hp-loss as a loss of positioning, or exerting themselves to avoid the blow. In the case of the graceful dodger, only the strike that reduces them to zero hit-points needs to actually connect kinetically.

First, why am I now exerting myself to dodge his blows? Why am I graceful and quick yet continuously messing up my positioning (and remeber I am also a skilled warrior/rogue/whatever). Why isn't he exerting himself more to actually land those blows on someone as graceful and quick as me? This is what I mean by one narrative being subsumed by the other.

Mechanically I am being whittled away towards the conclusion of me either being hit by his weapon and being taken out or me being missed by his weapon and still being taken out... mechanically I am not dodging anything. In other words even though I am (clumsily, which again messes with my narrative) dodging his blows in the fiction... the fact that I am always taking damage doesn't mechanically support that fiction... especially since at least part of hit points are meat, blood, etc.

 

[Imaro]

Dodging is tiring. He's being missed, but his ability to keep dodging forever is being reduced. Eventually, he'll get nicked, and then seriously injured, if he doesn't find some way to deal with Crazy Halberd Man. Graceful Dodger usually has no trouble, but Crazy Halberd Man is his weakness. He'd better be extra careful with this guy. I am completely okay with Graceful Dodger having an Achilles heel in the form of Crazy Halberd Man. It adds interest to that story you're telling.

So dodging is tiring but relentlessly attacking someone with a big halberd isn't?? Why doesn't Crazy Halberd man have a weakness to Graceful Dodger, or better yet why not let the dice decide whose narrative is stronger? Instead CHM auto-damages while GD'er does what exactly? Why is GD not being able to easily negate the attacks of a big clumsy weapon a better or more acceptable narrative than CHM relentlessly attacking him?

You could get your Graceful Dodger some chainmail and the Heavy Armor Master feat and he can reduce incoming physical damage by his CON mod. Now if his stat matches the fighter stat, he takes 0 damage on a miss. Of course, I realize that heavy armor does not quite fit the Graceful Dodger story you're telling, but the mechanic exists.

this mechanic doesn't support the GD'er story at all... it supports the tough guy who wears heavy armor and can take a hit without flinching...

 

[Garthanos]

You could get your Graceful Dodger some chainmail and the Heavy Armor Master feat and he can reduce incoming physical damage by his CON mod. Now if his stat matches the fighter stat, he takes 0 damage on a miss. Of course, I realize that heavy armor does not quite fit the Graceful Dodger story you're telling, but the mechanic exists.

Cross Eyed reflavoring... because the Heavy Armor Master feat is too narrowly defined.

 

[skotothalamos]

So dodging is tiring but relentlessly attacking someone with a big halberd isn't?? Why doesn't Crazy Halberd man have a weakness to Graceful Dodger, or better yet why not let the dice decide whose narrative is stronger? Instead CHM auto-damages while GD'er does what exactly? Why is GD not being able to easily negate the attacks of a big clumsy weapon a better or more acceptable narrative than CHM relentlessly attacking him?

So GD (or GoD, judging by his capabilities) stacks dodge and AC bonuses and is immune to everything? The story of Invincible Man got boring after the first hundred issues of Superman. Why can GD's story not allow for a situation where he has to differentiate from his usual tactic of "Stand next to the bad guy and humorously dodge all of his attacks"? When I think of an exemplar for GD, I think Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, who is often dodging and running away, until he creates an advantageous situation. This is supported in-game with Fighter maneuvers such as Dirty Trick and Spring Away, and even better with the second-level Rogue feature Cunning Action.

(Are they still accepting feedback?) I feel like the Rogue features Evasion and Uncanny Dodge need to be rewritten to account for the possibility of taking damage on a miss from a melee attack. Maybe Evasion should allow you to reduce any damage by half, not just damage from a hit. And maybe Uncanny Dodge should allow you to avoid any damage from a missed attack, not just spells that you make a Dex save against.

this mechanic doesn't support the GD'er story at all... it supports the tough guy who wears heavy armor and can take a hit without flinching...

It's almost like the front lines of a fight are a place for big guys in heavy armor instead of a bunch of people playing Bullet Time with the enemy weapons.

 

[skotothalamos]

if GWF is mimicking great sweeping strokes that are impossible to miss, what happens if you have more than one enemy in the same space? I'd almost argue that it makes more sense for someone with Great Weapon Fighting have an aura 1 around him where any enemies ending their turns there are subject to str mod damage. Better to divorce the STR damage from the attack roll if the attack roll is basically pointless in making a difference anyway.
Not that that would really do much to satisfy any vociferous anti 4e folks...

That's a 5e Ranger at 11th level with GWF and Whirlwind Attack.

 

[Imaro]

So GD (or GoD, judging by his capabilities) stacks dodge and AC bonuses and is immune to everything? The story of Invincible Man got boring after the first hundred issues of Superman. Why can GD's story not allow for a situation where he has to differentiate from his usual tactic of "Stand next to the bad guy and humorously dodge all of his attacks"? When I think of an exemplar for GD, I think Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, who is often dodging and running away, until he creates an advantageous situation. This is supported in-game with Fighter maneuvers such as Dirty Trick and Spring Away, and even better with the second-level Rogue feature Cunning Action.

How does advocating for the dice to decide whose narrative is more powerful equate to GD being Superman?? Also why isn't bashman differentiating his usual tactic when faced with someone who is specifically skilled in dodging blows? Also while GD is running and looking for an advantage, because damage happens even on a miss with the GWF, he's being whittled down mechanically...

What I am saying is that the dice should decide whether the GWF's attacks are able to surpass the GD's ability to dodge or whether GD's ability to evade is dominant... in other words but both should have a chance that their narrative supersedes the others. With damage on a miss being automatic that isn't the case. As it stands now, GWF's supersedes GD's.

(Are they still accepting feedback?) I feel like the Rogue features Evasion and Uncanny Dodge need to be rewritten to account for the possibility of taking damage on a miss from a melee attack. Maybe Evasion should allow you to reduce any damage by half, not just damage from a hit. And maybe Uncanny Dodge should allow you to avoid any damage from a missed attack, not just spells that you make a Dex save against.

This would be a start towards what I am talking about... though I'm not sure any ability should let one always do damage or always negate all damage without a roll involved, I guess I am advocating for their to always be the possibility of one or the other , however small that possibility might be.

It's almost like the front lines of a fight are a place for big guys in heavy armor instead of a bunch of people playing Bullet Time with the enemy weapons.

So are we discussing what's "realistic" now?? Or are we talking genre tropes and conceits. because your statement above doesn't apply to one of them.

 

[skotothalamos]

So are we discussing what's "realistic" now?? Or are we talking genre tropes and conceits. because your statement above doesn't apply to one of them.

haha. no, you got me. forgot where I was. We threw "realistic" out the window when we said "D&D"

 

[bogmad]

That's a 5e Ranger at 11th level with GWF and Whirlwind Attack.

And he had to work at it until he progressed enough to pull it off at 11th level. I do like that better than starting off that way at 1st level.
I'd also prefer if his inability to miss with GWF was modeled by his skill and attack bonus increasing, not some clumsy "my meta fiat ability says" so at level 1.

 

[Cadence]

As you can probably already guess, this is the approach that I think pushes towards more thorough-going process sim in design, and away from the current way that hp work.

I can't see an easy way to start down this path and find a stopping point short of a fundamental change in the game.

I certainly understand not wanting to go too far down that path.

Adjusting the spells to allow dodge saves on the border seems like a nice stopping point that isn't too far to me though. (In PF, for example, Acid Arrow is just ranged touch - does that make PF fundamentally different or too far?)

Is wanting to let fighters wear their opponents down through hp damage on a miss, also trying to reflect some extra reality in the game (e.g. being more simulationist) in addition to giving the players more control over the narrative? Is extending "hit-on-a-miss" from some inappropriate spells to melee a bigger change than pulling it back from those spells?

Is having a limit on the number of combat rounds before tiring (say based on con & level) instead of "hit-on-a-miss" a bad idea because it goes more simulationist and doesn't give the blatant control to the character?

The earliest version of this I know was by Roger Musson in a White Dwarf article "How to lose hit points and survive". It prefigures WotC's Wounds/Vitality approach - hit points as "heroic pool", CON as "meat pool".

If I ever get a pile of spending money I'm going to have to hit you up for a list of the most important White Dwarf issues and go hunt them down.

 

[Weather Report]

Except Mearls has the data and hasn't ditched it. He gave the PC answer but his data says it's testing well

Or that it's not totally hated, it came out in the 1st packet (Reaper feat), and then disappeared for a long time, so I don't think there is mass clamouring for it.

Anyway, I sincerely doubt it will be the default for GWF when the times comes, they should turn it back into a feat.