I kick open the door and charge into the room!

[MerakSpielman]

Non-euclidian geometry.


Seriously though, I wan't thinking a "charge action." I was speaking flavor-text. How about double move? Don't get to attack, but I'm there, looking all mean and nasty.

 

[smetzger]

On their initiative, the monsters could have readied an action to do something nasty to the PC, yes. In my example, they didn't.

And what if the door isn't there? It's a short section of hallway with a turn at the end and some critters around the turn. The person who announces they charge around the corner might not be the first one there, the way I have it in my first post.

You'll have to post the full scenario in order to be clear. I am assuming you mean 'hustle' and not 'charge' since a 'charge' needs to be in a straight line.

If the scenario is the following:
PCs hear monsters around corner and monsters see the PCs light source around the corner. Everyone roll init and whoever gets highest goes first. If the distance between monsters and PCs is less than the movement rate for the individual who has the highest init than that person can move and make a melee attack.

Looking back, your door post is correct by the rules. It is a judgement call on the DM as when to roll init. I prefer to roll it later and then give situational mods.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The method you're proposing sounds nice in theory but in practice it doesn't work. Any smart player would figure out what the monsters were doing and realize they could do it too.

Player X. I ready an action to fireball the room after Player A kicks the door in.
Player Y. I ready an attack at any monsters who survive the fireball.
Player Z. I ready an attack against any creatures who survive the archer's attack, partial charging if necessary to reach them.

Player A. I kick in the door and take a 5' step.

DM. OK, so the monsters had readied actions too. [Spends several minutes comparing initiative modifiers and rolling to break ties] So, Player X you have the best init modifier so your action goes off first.

Fireball.

DM. And Player Y also has a better init modifier than the monsters so he acts next.

Fires his bow.

DM. The monsters have the next best initiative so they take their readied actions: all the orcs throw javalins at the best target. And the ogre charges.

DM. Now player Z, your readied action goes off and you attack the ogre.

This is bad for several reasons.
First, adjudicating a dozen readied actions is a pain--especially when some (like players X, Y, and Zs' and the ogre's are contingent upon another readied action) It really bogs down combat.
Second, it encourages foolhardy play. Would the wizard automatically fireball the room? Would the ogre charge anything that opened the door? It seems that, at a bare minimum there would be some kind of reaction time during which the wizard evaluates where he can place a fireball without catching himself and the ogre makes out a target to charge. Ordinarily that kind of thing is handled by the initiative process but readied actions--particularly ones that are contingent upon other readied actions (which is the best way for PCs to do it since you don't want to fireball AFTER the fighter charges into the room) shortcircuit that whole process by allowing the character who picked the cleverest trigger to go first, regardless of initiative (note that if the wizard readied for "as soon as the door is open far enough for me to fit a fireball through it", he would get to go before any creatures in the room since their readied actions would almost have to be triggered by actually seeing the PCs but the wizard doesn't need to wait to see them.
Finally, it just doesn't make sense. The orcs, the ogre, the fighter, wizard, cleric (he kicked in the door), and archer all knew that there were enemies on the other side of the door. (If they didn't, a surprise round is the appropriate mechanic--not readied actions). They were all waiting for the enemy to become visible. None of them could really (the wizard fireballying through the door as it opens is more than a little silly) act before the door was open. It doesn't make sense that the cleric would always be slower to attack than the orcs and ogre (as he is because his standard action opens the door--he effectively loses his first round action). Nor does it make sense that the combatants would always react in the same order. They're tense, waiting to act. Maybe the fighter is the quickest to perceive the hulking form of the ogre through the dust of the shattered door. (He could roll high on initiative). Maybe the archer's finger slips on his bowstring or he couldn't hold his arrow drawn for quite long enough (he rolls low on initiative). Maybe the wizard fumbles his bat guano (rolled low) or an eager orc began hurling his javalin before the door was fully open (high initiative). None of these possibilities are present in the readied action model.

Finally, if you allow readied actions outside of initiative order, you'll have people walk through dungeons with an attack constantly readied. By the rules, they'd never be surprised or flatfooted again. They wouldn't roll initiative either.

It's much better to do what the system was designed to do and roll initiative (and allow readied actions) only when the PCs and monsters are able to interact with each other.

On their initiative, the monsters could have readied an action to do something nasty to the PC, yes. In my example, they didn't.

And what if the door isn't there? It's a short section of hallway with a turn at the end and some critters around the turn. The person who announces they charge around the corner might not be the first one there, the way I have it in my first post.

 

[Antikinesis]

So now the door kicker _always_ goes first? Thats not right, after all the monsters are ready to pounce on you as soon as you breach the door. If anything the monsters should get a situational +4 to init.

If everyone is standing around, not doing anything except waiting for the door-kicker, it makes sense to me that he goes first. As the kicker, he'll know before anyone else when that door is open, and able to react first. Of course, as already mentioned, opening the door is move-equivalent, so it restricts what he can do once the door is open. If he had to break down the door, it's even more restricting: he's already used his action for the round. (He could still move, though, if he hasn't yet.)

The monsters don't know if you're going to breach the door, or when, so I wouldn't think an init bonus would be appropriate. But that's just me.

-AK

 

[Murrdox]

Heck, you can have a scenario with readied actions WITHOUT a door, and it'd still be confusing as all hell. Unfortunately, that's just what you'd have to DO in a situation where both sides are aware of each other, but neither side wants to go first... consider the shoot-out at the O.K. Corale:

Doc Holiday: I ready my shotgun to fire at the first cowboy that draws a pistol

Virgil Earp: I ready both pistols to fire at McLaury

Morgan Earp: I ready my rifle to fire at Clanton

and so on etc... and both sides continue to "ready" actions until someone does something.

 

[Antikinesis]

Yow! Long post. Here we go...

The method you're proposing sounds nice in theory but in practice it doesn't work. Any smart player would figure out what the monsters were doing and realize they could do it too.

Player X. I ready an action to fireball the room after Player A kicks the door in.
Player Y. I ready an attack at any monsters who survive the fireball.
Player Z. I ready an attack against any creatures who survive the archer's attack, partial charging if necessary to reach them.

Player A. I kick in the door and take a 5' step.

DM. OK, so the monsters had readied actions too. [Spends several minutes comparing initiative modifiers and rolling to break ties] So, Player X you have the best init modifier so your action goes off first.

Fireball.

DM. And Player Y also has a better init modifier than the monsters so he acts next.

Fires his bow.

DM. The monsters have the next best initiative so they take their readied actions: all the orcs throw javalins at the best target. And the ogre charges.

DM. Now player Z, your readied action goes off and you attack the ogre.

This is bad for several reasons.
First, adjudicating a dozen readied actions is a pain--especially when some (like players X, Y, and Zs' and the ogre's are contingent upon another readied action) It really bogs down combat.

Make the players responsible for recognizing their triggers have been met. If the player misses it, he or she should have been paying more attention.

Second, it encourages foolhardy play. Would the wizard automatically fireball the room? Would the ogre charge anything that opened the door?

Punish foolhardy play. If your players get into a habit of this, there are countermeasures. "Oops. You realize in horror that the hostages you were trying to rescue just died a horrible, fiery death as their screams echo in your ears.... Through the smokey haze, you charge full speed into the room, and fall into [insert nasty trap of choice here]... Your "detect magic" spell shows that several of the piles of ashes were once magical in nature." You get the idea.

It seems that, at a bare minimum there would be some kind of reaction time during which the wizard evaluates where he can place a fireball without catching himself and the ogre makes out a target to charge. Ordinarily that kind of thing is handled by the initiative process but readied actions--particularly ones that are contingent upon other readied actions (which is the best way for PCs to do it since you don't want to fireball AFTER the fighter charges into the room) shortcircuit that whole process by allowing the character who picked the cleverest trigger to go first, regardless of initiative (note that if the wizard readied for "as soon as the door is open far enough for me to fit a fireball through it", he would get to go before any creatures in the room since their readied actions would almost have to be triggered by actually seeing the PCs but the wizard doesn't need to wait to see them.
Finally, it just doesn't make sense. The orcs, the ogre, the fighter, wizard, cleric (he kicked in the door), and archer all knew that there were enemies on the other side of the door. (If they didn't, a surprise round is the appropriate mechanic--not readied actions). They were all waiting for the enemy to become visible. None of them could really (the wizard fireballying through the door as it opens is more than a little silly) act before the door was open. It doesn't make sense that the cleric would always be slower to attack than the orcs and ogre (as he is because his standard action opens the door--he effectively loses his first round action).

Not exactly. Opening a door is move-equiv, so the cleric would still have an action available.

Nor does it make sense that the combatants would always react in the same order.

If they all agree to wait on each other to "do their thing", it makes perfect sense for them to act in the order that they've prepared.

They're tense, waiting to act. Maybe the fighter is the quickest to perceive the hulking form of the ogre through the dust of the shattered door. (He could roll high on initiative).

He's not watching the door, he's watching the archer. He waits.

Maybe the archer's finger slips on his bowstring or he couldn't hold his arrow drawn for quite long enough (he rolls low on initiative).

The fighter will call him a bad name and wait for the shot.

Maybe the wizard fumbles his bat guano (rolled low) ...

The archer will call him a bad name and wait for his trigger.

... or an eager orc began hurling his javalin before the door was fully open (high initiative).

If multiple prepared actions are triggered, take them in initiative order. The Orc just might get that javelin in before the wizard gets his guano shaped just right.

None of these possibilities are present in the readied action model.

I respectfully disagree.

Finally, if you allow readied actions outside of initiative order, you'll have people walk through dungeons with an attack constantly readied. By the rules, they'd never be surprised or flatfooted again. They wouldn't roll initiative either.

So don't allow readied actions outside of initiative order.

It's much better to do what the system was designed to do and roll initiative (and allow readied actions) only when the PCs and monsters are able to interact with each other.

Initiative starts when combatants are aware of each other. As previously mentioned, the actual initiative rolls can wait until one of the combatants decides to take an action. The rules allow (and, I would think, are intended to allow) players to make battle preparations as a team, by using prepared actions, if given time to do so (for example, by enemies waiting on the other side of a closed door).

-AK

 

[DanMcS]

And what if the door isn't there? It's a short section of hallway with a turn at the end and some critters around the turn. The person who announces they charge around the corner might not be the first one there, the way I have it in my first post.

That's because you're announcing stuff you can't do. You can announce 'I kill all the dragons with my pinky', but the DM is going to make you roll attack and damage dice. Similarly, you can announce "I run around the corner first", but the DM is still going to have everyone roll initiative. You can announce your intent, whether you can pull it off depends on the rules and the rolls.

With kicking open the door, I'd say that is your action in the surprise round, and only you get one, so then everyone rolls initiative and moves on.

 

[Murrdox]

Under the case being described, I'd rule differently.

So let's sum up the scenario.

We've got an archer, a mage, and a fighter in one room, they've made a lot of noise, and there's another room right next to the one they're in - a simple wooden door being the only barrier.

In the next room are several gnolls. They have heard the party fighting in the room next to them, and have heard humans speaking. They know something is wrong, and that the humans will have to get past THEM next. The party, on the other hand, is ASSUMING the next room is occupied, but does not necessarily know.

So the fighter decides to kick down the door and charge into the room.

In this case, since the Gnolls were aware of the party, and the fighter is NOT aware of the gnolls, even though he is charging into the room - The fighter bashes down the door, and charges into the room. The Gnolls have a surprise round, because they're ready for the party. The gnolls roll initiative, and each one takes its partial action (beat up on the fighter, fire an arrow at one of the fighter's allies it sees through the door, etc...) and then everyone else rolls initiative and things continue.

Now, if the PARTY members want to ready actions before the fighter bashes down the door, then things get complex, but not overly so.

Let's assume the wizard is going to cast a fireball into the room, and the archer is going to shoot the first non-human that he sees in the room. They both ready their actions to happen after the fighter bashes down the door.

What I would rule happens is: The fighter bashes down the door. Then, the gnolls get their surprise round, because they are aware of the party, and lying in ambush. THEN the player's readied actions happen.

This is the kind of situation you end up with in a system with no simultaneous actions. No matter what, a readied action does not beat a surprise round. The players do NOT get surprise on the gnolls, because although they highly SUSPECT something is in the room, they don't know. The gnolls on the other hand, are lying in wait.

So, it should be:
1) Fighter bashes down door (no init yet, combat hasn't started)
2) Gnolls roll initiative, get surprise round
3) All players roll initiative. Since the archer and wizard were readying actions for after the fighter bashes down the door, they automatically get an initiative 1 higher than anyone else, since they have effectively determined their order in the combat sequence before initiative was even rolled. So they don't have to roll.

 

[Nail]

opps

 

[Caliban]

I thought you had to charge in a straight line. How do you charge around a corner?

Psionic Charge baby!