I kick open the door and charge into the room!

[Antikinesis]

You can't ready an action outside of combat.

Agreed.

Combat does not start until the door is kicked open.

Incorrect. Combat starts when the combatants are aware of each other. Elder-Basilisk kindly provided the quote:

DMG 61 "If both sides become aware of the other but they cannot interact immediately, track time in rounds, giving both sides the same amount of time in full rounds, until the two sides can begin to interact." . . . . "The fighter opens the door and the DM calls for an initiative check from all. The third round begins, this time with the order of actions being important (and dicated by the initiative check results).

(Emphasis mine.) If you're counting rounds, you're in combat, and [can] use your turn in a round to ready an action (though that might not be the best use of your turn).

It is up to the DM, not the players, do announce when combat starts. If your DM lets you start combat before the two sides can actually get at each other, then he deserves all the readied-action headaches.

It's in the rules, amigo. Dealing with readied actions is part of the burden when you assume the DM's mantle.

[Edit: those darned typos again.]

-AK

 

[smetzger]

So how did it go down in FotR?

The heroes got to loose arrows (and a throwing axe) _before_ the orcs bust through the door.

 

[Antikinesis]

So how did it go down in FotR?

The heroes got to loose arrows (and a throwing axe) _before_ the orcs bust through the door.

I sense a trap.

The problem with using that scenario is that in D&D, doors usually provide 100% cover until they're open or destroyed. Nothing wrong with modifying that in a dungeon setup, though. As a door's hit points drop from being attacked, reduce the cover provided by the door.

If the fellowship had prepared ranged attacks for the first available target, they would get some shots in as the cover provided by the crumbling door is reduced.

Sound reasonable?

-AK

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Another way to look at it: If everyone has a Ready Action for when the door is opened, what is the easiest and most fair way of deciding who goes first? Roll initiative.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Another way to look at it: If everyone has a Ready Action for when the door is opened, what is the easiest and most fair way of deciding who goes first? Roll initiative.

Zigactly. It's for that exact reason that when EVERYONE in a combat is either readying or doing nothing, round structure should probably stop.

So, when both sides are readying for the door to be opened, initiative stops and readied actions cease to exist.

Kick in the door happens, and that triggers initiative again.

After that, initiative is rolled.

This makes perfect sense - it's pretty much assumed that everybody walks around with a readied action available all the time. That's what the surprise round is - everyone who knows that something is up uses their readied action.

 

[Golandrinel]

Your friends can pass through your square (if you allow them to) during a partial charge, or just a move to get into the room. Or even move and attack, if they were delaying instead of using a readied action.

-AK

I think I'd make an exception here, or in any "person in a doorway" scenario. Common dictates...

 

[Antikinesis]

Another way to look at it: If everyone has a Ready Action for when the door is opened, what is the easiest and most fair way of deciding who goes first? Roll initiative.

Uhhh... if everyone has a Ready Action for when the door is opened, then who's gonna open the door?

Someone will need to abandon their readied action to open the door, in which case the initiative of the other readiers (?) is lowered to that of the opener.

-AK

 

[Antikinesis]

Originally posted by Saeviomagy
Zigactly. It's for that exact reason that when EVERYONE in a combat is either readying or doing nothing, round structure should probably stop.

So, when both sides are readying for the door to be opened, initiative stops and readied actions cease to exist.

Kick in the door happens, and that triggers initiative again.

After that, initiative is rolled.

Not exactly. The door-kicker abandoned his readied action when he decided to kick the door. That triggers the other readied actions, and the triggered players' initiatives are lowered to the door-kicker's.

-AK

 

[smetzger]

I sense a trap.

The problem with using that scenario is that in D&D, doors usually provide 100% cover until they're open or destroyed. Nothing wrong with modifying that in a dungeon setup, though. As a door's hit points drop from being attacked, reduce the cover provided by the door.

If the fellowship had prepared ranged attacks for the first available target, they would get some shots in as the cover provided by the crumbling door is reduced.

Sound reasonable?

-AK

More of a Troll, but its also a good example, because its visual, was done well, and similar circumstances happen in D&D.

Well in the movie, not only did the Fellowship get a couple of shots off through arrow slit sized holes, they also got shots off right after the door collapsed and before the orcs were even able to attempt attacks.

Ok, so lets do this via D&D rules.
1) Orcs and Fellowship are aware of each other.
2) Roll Init.
3) Orcs use rules for attacking inanimate objects. Hardnes etc.
Fellowship readies actions.
Orcs in the back ready actions.
4) There are no rules for partial breaking of the door so the Fellowship does not get to make any attacks as holes open up in the door.
5) The door comes crashing down. Orcs in front row who were bashing the door don't have readied actions, they can't because they were using there actions to attack the door. But they can move in, albeit after everyones readied actions go.

Fellowship's readies actions trigger at the same time that orcs in back go. This is the gray area, who goes first? By the rules the Orcs can move through their comrads squares unimpeded. Maybe the fellowship is far enough back that they are out of partial charge range. But what if they aren't? Possible solutions:
- Highest dex goes first
- reroll init, possibly giving Fellowship and 2nd row orcs a decent circumstance bonus
- Readied missile attacks go first, in dex order, then readied partial charges, in dex order.
- Orcs need to make balance checks to get past their comrads and over a broken door, any who fail stop in there charge
- 2nd row orcs can't partial charge because there buddies and the broken door do not allow for straight movement
- some combination of the above.

Now if the Fellowship had not barred the door:
1) Orcs and Fellowship are aware of each other.
2) Roll Init.
3) Fellowship readies actions.
Orcs in the back ready actions.
Orc uses a MeA to Open the door. If he has a missile weapon or a fellowship member is within melee range he can attack.
4) The door opens.
Readied actions trigger, with the same complications above.
Orc door opener can now move in.

 

[Antikinesis]

Originally posted by smetzger
More of a Troll, but its also a good example, because its visual, was done well, and similar circumstances happen in D&D.

Well in the movie, not only did the Fellowship get a couple of shots off through arrow slit sized holes, they also got shots off right after the door collapsed and before the orcs were even able to attempt attacks.

Ok, so lets do this via D&D rules.
1) Orcs and Fellowship are aware of each other.
2) Roll Init.
3) Orcs use rules for attacking inanimate objects. Hardnes etc.
Fellowship readies actions.
Orcs in the back ready actions.
4) There are no rules for partial breaking of the door so the Fellowship does not get to make any attacks as holes open up in the door.

From the SRD:

Degree of Cover
Cover is assessed in subjective measurements of how much protection it offers a character. The DM determines the value of cover.

(Emphasis mine.) I don't believe we're venturing into house rule territory if the DM wants to allow some shots through a damaged door.

5) The door comes crashing down. Orcs in front row who were bashing the door don't have readied actions, they can't because they were using there actions to attack the door. But they can move in, albeit after everyones readied actions go.

Fellowship's readies actions trigger at the same time that orcs in back go. This is the gray area, who goes first?

Since their actions were all triggered by the same event, they are all now on the same initiative. By the rules, that's Dex order, and "flip a coin" for Dex ties. (We don't actually use a coin, we just roll a d20 and call odd/even, high/low, whatever.) If you want to break a 3-way (or more) Dex tie with dice rolls, I don't consider that to be much of a stretch, rules-wise, but that's not really an initiative roll. I wouldn't consider any modifiers to be appropriate for breaking such a tie.

-AK

[Edit: fixing some embarrassing typos, hopefull before someone captures them in a quote. ]