I know thread doesnt belong hear, but few read homebrew. Ranger overhaul

[ScuroNotte]

I think it safe to say it is overpowered, yes.

No class receives more than 1 feature at any given level above 3rd.

I disagree looking at some classes they gain some features after 3rd Bards gain Expertise, and Magical Secrets, Fighter gain multiple attacks after 5th and additional action surges and ability score improvements. Monks gain Stunning Strike, Evasion, and Diamond Soul. Paladins gain Aura of Protectyion, Improved Devine Smite, and Oath spells Compared to Rangers). Rogues gain Uncanny Dodge, Expertise, Evasion, Blindsense, and Slippery Mind.

This build has, roughly, 4 or so more features than it should or any other class does. I would take a couple of those secondary features and wrap them up into archetype features.

Also, re: the archetype features, as rangers are now, would include two features at 3rd, then 1 at 7th, 1 at 11th, and 1 at 15th. Following the Paladin's progression, they would be 2 archetype features at 3rd, 1 at 7th, 1 at 15th and 1 at 20th... Either way, there should be 4 places/levels that the archetype feature comes in, not 3.

I accidentilty excluded the 11th Level Archetype. That was my fault.

So, from what I can tell, something like this seems more in line with what's in the PHB:
1st Expertise, Natural Explorer (Both of these are fine, I suppose, though Expertise at 1st level is, obviously, supposed to be the Rogue's "thing". I would push Expertise back a couple of levels and put something else useful here.)
THE REASON I PLACED EXPERTISE AT FIRST LEVEL WAS SO THE RANGER COULD EXCEL AT SURVIVAL AND NATURE. MAYBE I SHOULD CLARIFY THAT AS THE FEATURE AND THE LATER GAIN OF EXPERTISE WOULD BE ANY 2 RANGER SKILLS.
2nd Fighting Style, Spells, Primeval Awareness There should only be 2 features here. I'm going to go with Fighting Style and Spell Use.
PALADINS HAVE 3 FEATURES. THAT IS WHY I PLACED THREE HERE. I COULD DO THE ROGUE LEVELING AND PLACE 3 FEATURES AT 1ST LEVEL
3rd Archetype (two features from your subclass)
PALADINS HAVE ANOTHER FEATURE WITH THEIR OATH
4th Score improvement (as normal. Fine.)
5th Extra Attack (as normal. Fine.)
6th Natural Explorer, Swift of Foot As noted, this is a feat, and you should only have 1 feature here anyway. The improvement/addition to your Natural Explorer is your feature for this level. NATURAL EXPLORERE IS MORE FLUFF THAN ANYTHING ELSE. THERE ARE CLASSES THAT OFFER MULPTIPLE FEATURE AT A LEVEL THIS A FEAT FOR THE ROGUE SWASHBUCKLER AS WELL. THE BARBARIAN HAS THE PARTIAL FEAT OF GAIN 10 FEET MOVEMENT. THE BARD HAS AN IMPROVED FEATURE OF MAGIC INITIATE WITH MAGICAL SECRETS.
7th Archetype (as normal. Fine.)
8th Score Improvement (as normal), Land's Stride THIS IS THE EXACT COPY FROM THE RANGER LEVEL PROGRESSION CHART.Your Score Improvement is your "feature" for this level...and for 8th level for any and every other class. You [and no other character] don't get something else in addition to that. I concur Land's Stride seems like the kind of thing a Ranger should definitely have...you just can't have it at this level. I would be tempted, and this is only a suggestion, to throw this in at 5th and push their Extra Attack back a few levels. But, I suspect, that would not be something you (or many others) would appreciate. COPIED FROM EXISTING RANGER 8TH LEVEL FEATURE
9th Evasion Again, a rogue's thing but placed here, a couple of levels later than the rogue gets it, makes sense and doesn't "step on proverbial toes." I think this works fine. I THOUGHT THE RANGER WOULD HAVE ENCOUNTERED CREATURES WITH AREA EFFECT ABILITIES IE BREATH WEAPON.
10th Wisdom proficiency Is there some reason you want this instead of the 3rd favored terrain from Natural Explorer, like the ranger has now/is supposed to get? EVEN IN THE ORIGINAL RANGER PROGRESSION, THESE FEATURES WERE GAIN WITH OTHER FEATURES. THE REASON I PLACED HERE IS THAT THE ADDITIONAL TERRAINS, IN MY OPINION, SHOULD NOT BE GAINED AFTER 10TH LEVEL, AND I COULD NOT FIND ANOTHER ACCEPTABLE PLACE TO PLACE THIS FEATURE.ALSO WAS DEBATING MAKING IT WISDOM OR CONSTITUTION.
11th Horde Cleaver, Expertise If you want to keep Expertise as a ranger feature, I would suggest using it here for the first time. Not as a "get extra skills to have expertise in." Horde Cleaver is a Hunter subclass feature...and while I agree that it serves well for a base class feature, again, as models of every single other class shows you, you have no precedent to receive 2 features here. Easy fix: EXPERTISE HERE WAS TO REPLACE THE HIDE IN PLACE SIGHT WITH STEALTH PROFICIENCY AND ANOHTER RANGER SKILL. I STRONGLY AGREE WITH MAKING HORDE CLEAVER PART OF AN ARCHETYPE. I WAS DEBATING MAKING HORDER CLEAVER PART OF THE HUNTER CLASS FEATURE AT 11TH LEVEL. AND I ACCIDENTILY LEFT OFF THE 11TH ARCHETYPE AS I WAS ALSO REFERRING TO THE PALADIN CHART.
11th: Archetype This matches the existing ranger class structure. Then you can make Horde Cleaver the 11th level Archetype Feature for one subclass and Expertise the 11th level archetype feature for another subclass.
12th Score Improvement (as normal. Fine.)
13th
14th Feral Senses, Vanish (Pick one and, honestly, Feral Senses is too good to get this early.) I PLACED FERAL SENSES HERE AS I THOUGHT IT WAS SOMEWHAT SIMILIAR TO ROGUE'S BLINDSENSE AND NOT AN ACCEPTABLE 18TH LEVEL FEATURE.
15th Archetype (as normal. Fine.)
16th Score Improvement (as normal. Fine.)
17th
18th Ranger Recovery This is interesting. I might even allow it to regain spell slots, as the magical recovery works (up to half the ranger's level worth of slots) It might even be too far back for as useful as it might be. I would further adjust it to allow you to regain your HD on the short rest as if it were a long rest...and then you can use those to replace your HP, but not "auto-full HP on a short rest." That's WAY out of hand/OP and immersion breaking. MAYBE ALLOW A BONUS TO THE HD ROLL OR ALLOW MAX FROM HIT DIE ROLL ONCE ?
19th Score Improvement (as normal. Fine.)
20th Foe Slayer (existing lackluster capstone. Fine.) Honestly, I'd be willing to ditch this and push the Feral Senses back here...suffering no disadavantage/preternatural senses to fight invisible foes is pretty cool/capstone sounding...Significantly more "I'm 20th LEVELLLL!!!" better than "+Wis mod. to damage," imho. meh. I DID CHANGE IT TO ALLOW IT AGAINST ANY FOE VS FAVORED ENEMY WHICH I ELIMINATED. OTHERWISE, I THOUGHT IT WAS FINE COMPARED TO SOME OTHER 20TH LEVEL FEATURES IE BARD, CLERIC, DRUID (WITH RESPECT TO TIMELESS BODY AT 18TH), AND SORCERER.

In fact, after going through item by item, I am curious how you feel you modeled this after the paladin's progression? Other than spell slots ...which the ranger and paladin already share. THEY DONT SHARE AS THE RANGER SPELL LIST IS LIMITED TO 13 AND UNABLE TO CHANGE SPELL KNOWN AFTER LONG REST WHILE PALADIN CAN HAVE HIGHER KNOWN NUMBER AND CHANGE AFTER REST.

Bottom line, hey, if this is going to be fun for you and your DM is cool with it, have a blast. I think it is completely out of whack/imbalanced with existing class structure and I would not allow it. But...I'm not your DM.

I DONT WANT TO CREATE AN OVER POWERING CHARACTER. I WANT TO MAKE A RANGER THAT I THINK WILL BE FAIR AND ON EQUAL PAR WITH OTHER CLASSES. THAT IS WHY I POSTED TO GAIN HELP. MOST IF NOT ALL OF THE POSTERS ARE FAR MORE KNOWLEDGABLE AND EXPERIENCED THAN MYSELF, SO WHAT BETTER PLACE TO SEEK GUIDANCE THAN HERE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT AND WILL ALTER THE FEATURES AGAIN.

 

[steeldragons]

Dude, relax. No need to shout.

I know it's kind of a PITA when you're working on these kind of homebrew things. Alterations and reqrites are really the name of the game...and then, when you think you have everything juuuuust right...and you play with it for a little bit, you realize things are all messed up that you never even considered. Part of the creative process and all of that.
Again, the bottom line is, this is something you are making for you...so if you have your reasons for doing things the way you did, and you're ok with them, then you really don't have to change anything because of what some people you've never met have to say on the internet (though I do appreciate the praise of this being a place where we know what we're talking about and are good at this kind of stuff. So, thanks for that. ).

I will add/agree that if you want the Expertise at level one so they get double prof at 1st level for Survival and Nature, then make the feature stipulate that. By saying they gain proficiency in two Ranger skills of choice does not, at all, guarantee everyone taking this class is going to choose the skills you think they should.

I am also curious, since you seem very sure, what are the classes that have multiple abilities gained at levels above 3?

 

[ScuroNotte]

I wasn't shouting, or meant to so I am sorry you took it that way. I was responding initially with my cell phone which did not allow me to change the color, so I made it capital letters to distinguish it from the rest of the text.

I am sorry if I offended you. I do appreciate the critique and want to hear and learn more, so please continue

 

[ScuroNotte]

I am also curious, since you seem very sure, what are the classes that have multiple abilities gained at levels above 3?[/QUOTE]

Excluding 18th & 20th level:

Bard - Expertise, Magical Secrets, Countercharm

Fighter - Extra Attacks, Indomitable

Monk - Evasion, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul

Paladin - Aura of Protection, Aura of Courage, Improved Devine Smite, Cleansing Touch

Ranger - Land Stride, Vanish

Rogue - Uncanny Dodge, Expertise, Evasion, Blindsense, Slippery Mind, Reliable Talent

 

[steeldragons]

Ah. I see. Yeah, the capslock thing doesn't "read" well on the receiving end. No offense taken, not to worry. I've certainly had more offensive exchanges here. hahaha. But, good to know you weren't intending to yell.

Now...

Bard - Expertise, Magical Secrets, Countercharm

Expertise: 3rd, increase at 10th.
Countercharm: 6th. No increase.
Magical Secrets: is, in fact, 10th, increases at 14th AND 18th.

Archetype features come in at...3rd (2 features), 6th, and 14th.

Ya got me here, dead to rights, at 6th. The bard receives two separate "full" features granted in the same level. So, apparently, I'm mistaken and there is "precedent." But I would not consider it strong enough to warrant emulation/reproduction 4 times within a single class.

In a way, there are also, "two features" at 10th level...though not the way I was intending...So, I think I see what it is you're talking about and we're kind of missing each other's point...I'll go through the rest just to confirm/make sure.

Fighter - Extra Attacks, Indomitable

Extra Attacks: 5th, increase at 11th and 20th.
Indomitable: 9th, increase at 13th and 17th.

Archetype features come in at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th...so there's no overlap here at all. Not sure why this is in the list.

Monk - Evasion, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul

Evasion: 7th level. No increase.
Purity of Body: 10th, no increase.
Diamond Soul: 14th, no increase.

Archetype features at 3rd, 6th, 11th,`17th.

Again, no overlap.

Paladin - Aura of Protection, Aura of Courage, Improved Devine Smite, Cleansing Touch

AoProtection: 6th, increase at 18th.
AoCourage: 10th, increase at 18th.
Improved Divine Smite: 11th. No increase.
Cleansing Touch: 14th. No increase.

Archetype features at 3rd (2), 7th (with 18th level increase), 15th, 20th. No overlap.

[Interesting aside: though completely irrelevant to note here, the Vengeance Oath does NOT receive an archetype feature increase at 18th with their 7th level feature, while the Devotion and Ancients paladins do. Neither here nor there since they have two base class features boosting at 18th level anyway. Just odd/interesting there's this miniscule difference in abilities between subclasses.]

Ranger - Land Stride, Vanish

Land Stride: 8th. No increase.
Vanish: 14th. No increase.

Archetype features at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th. Not seeing the overlap here either.

Rogue - Uncanny Dodge, Expertise, Evasion, Blindsense, Slippery Mind, Reliable Talent

Expertise: 1st, increase at 6th.
Uncanny Dodge: 5th. No increase.
Evasion: 7th, no increase.
Reliable Talent: 11th, no increase.
Blindsense: 14th, no increase.
Slippery Mind: 15th, no increase.

Archetype features at 3rd (2), 9th, 13th, and 17th.

Again, not the overlap that you were using.

So, there are a couple of examples where a given feature improves at a higher level and the character receives an addition new feature at that same level. We've seen there is 1 example (Bard, 6th level), where a class receives two individual new features at the same level.

It is this last bit that I am having a problem with/think should be adjusted and where I don't think that was clear. Classes (for the vast majority) do not receive two separate new features at levels over 3rd. If something in improving/increasing then you can probably get away with introducing a new feature along with it...once or twice.

Note, also, the Ability Score Imrpovement, for all classes, is 4th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 19th. The bard and monk, both have features presenting at 10th. So if you're going to use Ability Score Improvement as one of a level's features and give them another one, then make it at 10th.

For your proposed ranger, if you wanted to double up on ONE advancement level with 1 new feature and 1 older feature that is improving, I would consider that in line with the other classes and acceptable.

So...since I"m not sure if that makes things more clear or infinitely more confusing, here's what I would do/I'm talking about, fill in as you like:
Base Ranger Class Feature Progression:
1st: 2 features.
2nd: 2 features.
3rd: Archetype that gives 2 features.
4th: Ability Score Improvement (ASI)
5th: 1 feature
6th: one 1st level feature increase
7th: Archetype feature
8th: ASI increase
9th: one 2nd level feature increase
10th: ASI increase + new base feature
11th: Archetype feature or former archetype feature increase
12th: ASI increase
13th:
14th: additional 1st level feature increase
15th: Archetype feature
16th: ASI increase
17th:
18th: 1 base feature or former base feature increase
19th: ASI increase
20th: capstone feature (seems necessary, but I really wouldn't have any issue with a former feature [base or archetype] increasing to something super cool instead. As noted multiple times, the existing PHB ranger capstone is fairly blah.)

That gives you, 6 or 7 levels of base class features, 6 levels of ASI (mandatory, as with all other classes), 5 Archetype features (2 at 3rd level +3 more, 1 per level), 4 levels of increasing base class features (1, almost certainly, is more preferred terrains for Natural Explorer), 1 or 2 possible levels of increasing archetype features (if you have something that it makes sense to "scale" as they level.)

 

[ScuroNotte]

I misunderstood your question regarding multiple abilities after 3rd level. I took it as different abilities not originally listed in levels 1 through 3.

Regardless, I agree with you in trying to separate more of the features

Bard
5th Bardic Inspiration, Font of Inspiration
6th Countercharm, Bardic College (which is Archetype)
10th Bardic Inspiration, Expertise, Magical Secrets
14th Magical Secrets, Bard College

Cleric
6th Channel Divinity, Divine Domain Feature (Archetype)
8th Ability Score, Destroy Undead, Divine Feature
17th Destroy Undead, Divine Domain

Ranger (As Written)
6th Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer
8th Ability Score, Lands Stride
10th Natural Explorer, Hide in Plain Sight
14th Favored Enemy, Vanish

 

[ScuroNotte]

Thank you for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

The First 2 Ranger level features have stayed the same, except exchanging Favored Enemy with Expertise.
I also left the combo level features of levels 6 and 8 alone as Natural Explorer is situational as is Lands Stride.

The Cleaver Feature I placed into a 11th level Hunter's Multiattack option as I agree with you that it should be part of archetype, not core.



1st Expertise (Survival & Nature), Natural Explorer
2nd Fighting Style, Spells
3rd Archetype - only one
4th Score improvement
5th Extra Attack
6th Natural Explorer, Swift of Foot (placed a feature here vs 2 at 3rd level)
7th Archetype
8th Score Improvement, Land's Stride (as in PHB)
9th Evasion
10th Expertise (Stealth & 1 other 2 Ranger skill)
11th Archetype
12th Score Improvement
13th Wisdom (or Constitution) Proficiency
14th Vanish
15th Archetype
16th Score Improvement
17th Feral Senses
18th Ranger Recovery
19th Score Improvement
20th Foe Slayer

 

[Matthan]

Fighting Style (Change)

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack. You are able to draw and stow both weapons. All attacks are part of the attack action.

I'm not the best person to critique the work over all and it sounds like you're already getting great advice on that front. However, this jumped out at me as a problem. Moving the attack of the off hand weapon to be part of the attack action is a big deal. I feel like forcing TWF to use the Bonus action is a key part of balancing the option. As far as I can recall, there is no option in the RAW that would allow that so I would be very leery of allowing that in a homebrew.

The part about drawing and stowing weapons is technically stealing a bit from the Dual Wielder feat (which I know you realize), but it's the part that only matters to the most serious DMs so it's not a personal concern for me. However, if you want it to be balanced to Core then I would keep that part out too.

I'll be honest. I don't think TWF needs to be tweaked. It seems to work fine when I've seen it in play. If you did tweak it here, I would argue that you would need to tweak it everywhere else it appears as well (which is what house rules are for).

 

[ScuroNotte]

I'm not the best person to critique the work over all and it sounds like you're already getting great advice on that front. However, this jumped out at me as a problem. Moving the attack of the off hand weapon to be part of the attack action is a big deal. I feel like forcing TWF to use the Bonus action is a key part of balancing the option. As far as I can recall, there is no option in the RAW that would allow that so I would be very leery of allowing that in a homebrew.).

The more input the better. That is why I seek advice.

The reason I tweaked TWF

1. It doesn't feel right that to fully utilize the ability, you need a feat to draw and stow both weapons. That should be part of the ability of TWF. Forcing a character to draw 1 weapon at a time is ludicrous (to me). Though I would still take feat for AC +1

2. The fighting style's benefit of adding the modifier is not enough of a benefit to select the style. O other classes can use the style with other advantages added ie rogues with sneak attack or paladin's smite abilities. The groups I play with allow the attacks to be part of attack action and it is not OP. Additionally, fighters get, although later on, several attacks in level progression.

It just seems, to me atleast, that they are trying to dissuade players from selecting TWF. Especially when you take into consideration the benefits the other fighting style get, especially with feats. In addition to many actions require bonus actions which you do not have with TWF.


Though I have considered that all the attacks for TWF be part of attack action gained between levels 6 to 9 so other classes would have to do more than a dip

 

[Matthan]

The more input the better. That is why I seek advice.

The reason I tweaked TWF

1. It doesn't feel right that to fully utilize the ability, you need a feat to draw and stow both weapons. That should be part of the ability of TWF. Forcing a character to draw 1 weapon at a time is ludicrous (to me)

2. The fighting style's benefit of adding the modifier is not enough of a benefit to select the style. O other classes can use the style with other advantages added ie rogues with sneak attack or paladin's smite abilities. The groups I play with allow the attacks to be part of attack action and it is not OP. Additionally, fighters get, although later on, several attacks in level progression.

It just seems, to me atleast, that they are trying to dissuade players from selecting TWF. Especially when you take into consideration the benefits the other fighting style get, especially with feats. In addition to many actions require bonus actions which you do not have with TWF.

I completely get the point with stowing weapons. I don't run my game that strict so it genuinely doesn't impact me. I'm just pointing out the balance of it with RAW which you knew. I think that's completely a fair house rule.

I think the action economy is well balanced so I'm seeing it from that angle. What your option does is free up the bonus action which I feel would push TWF into best option territory especially with multi-classing. A lot of neat tricks are balanced by the action economy. For your group and table, that may be fine, but I think it's a step past the balance we see in the rules. I'm not a great optimizer so I can't see the synergies as well as others might. One that popped in my head is a rogue/ranger getting more use of their cunning action ability. It may not break the game, but I feel pretty safe in saying that it isn't balanced.

I think if you want to tweak TWF and stay in balance with the Core rules, you might want to think outside of the box a bit. Maybe introduce a fighting style that doesn't just add onto TWF as written, but models it differently. I'm not sure what that might look like (maybe let you use the off hand weapon to feint and gain +1 to hit/damage with main weapon as a bonus action?), but that's what I would give some thought to.