I like encounter powers and rituals but not at-wills and dailies

My advice would be to actually PLAY 4e for a while. Then tinker with it. I know when players that are used to older versions of the game read through the 4e rules that a lot of things strike them as ugly, awkward, or just plain dumb. But if you actually play the game, run a campaign for a while, you will rapidly discover that it is a pretty decent system and really isn't in need of much tweaking.

That is an irrelevant statement in the house rules forum, and doesn't add anything to the thread I'm afraid.

This thread exists because Sadrik wants to consider alternatives to the existing rules, and he can tinker with it as much and as soon as he wants.

Thanks
 

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Instead, how about Daily Powers become Encounter Powers, but you need to spend an Action Point to use them. APs come by every other encounter (or more frequently, if you want to). This might have complications I'm not seeing though...

I also thought of this but was also concerned about what APs do already, how they are generated and how changing them would effect various feats, paragon classes and other things that AP trickle down into.

That said if all the tangential side effects of implementing this can be shorn up, this may be the best way to make dailies as encounter powers with a cost. The first thing that I would do with implementing this idea would be removing the normal action point action, possibly making that a feat or a power.

BTW, do humans get an extra "at-will that becomes an encounter" power? It might not be balanced, because you're increasing their damage.

This is a good question. Giving them 4 encounter powers when everyone else gets 3 is probably too powerful but it may be fine, it would need to be tested. Assuming the racial feature would have to be removed perhaps humans could get a "reserve feat" for free instead.

Maybe you could make at-will work like Lay on Hands, which you can use [primary ability modifier] times each day or encounter or something.

I don't really like the lay on hands way because they are ultimately limited per day but the cleric's healing word and warlord's inspiring word's limitation seems to work well.

"You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power three times per encounter."

This is an interesting way to go with the "reserve feats". Rather than just do it once per battle allow twice per encounter and at 16th three times per encounter. You know considering they stripped out most of the sub-systems they have a lot of different systems within individual powers themselves. This is more difficult to track than simply discarding a power card or checking off a box. I suppose they way around this is you make more copies of the power card or multiple boxes to check off.

Either way, I think some builds will like your game better than others: a fighter will get another high damage encounter power, while still basic-attacking with his high Str, but a laser cleric will have to use his low Str to melee, and a fey-lock will be shooting a bow with his low Dex.

Perhaps if you gave each class a basic attack with their primary ability score, things wouldn't be so bad... like Rogues could use Finesse Attack (melee, Dex vs AC, [w]+Dex dmg), paladins would have Holy Attack (melee, Cha vs AC; [w]+Cha dmg), etc. They don't have to be basic attacks. Ranged classes could use these options [primary ability modifier] times per encounter/day. Think of it as conjuring magic ammunition for your imaginary crossbow. But maybe you could let warlocks keep their at-will Eldritch Blast (wich is a class feature anyway), as a tribute to their older edition brothers ;)

I understand this, and it is a bit of a limitation of the game system. It makes a lot of assumptions such as you will always be attacking with your highest stat. The concern is that if this is altered, it may collapse the game and no one will hit or do a proper amount of damage to contribute in a meaningful way to combat.

In previous editions this was not a very bad thing because base attacks were based upon strength or dexterity only and so you knew if you were going to be shooting a bow or swinging a sword you needed strength or dexterity at least a little. Now you don't need those stats to make a character necessarily. Additionally, you know that the "to-hit" rate for your spells was much higher than it is now (saving throws were relatively easily failed) so you could afford a compromise on your stat line and spread it out and take two 16's or even a 16 and several 14's and still be competent now you need an 18 or 20 to be competent.

So what would the effect of removing the at-wills be? It would change character creation for sure. It may make characters invest in strength or dexterity more, when they normally would not have. This will lower the primary stat to do so (unless of course you have a class that needs one of those stats). Doing this may alter the 50% to hit rate assumption and make it more difficult to be competent.

A positive effect is that it will open up design for character types that are sub-par in the current rule set. For instance, a common character at my game table in previous editions was the elf cleric archer of correlon. This character was a dex and wis based character. Not a very viable build now. I mean, what would a cleric be doing with a bow let alone a high dex. A ranged cleric is a lazer cleric pure and simple and that only requires wisdom, and a very high wisdom at that to be effective. With making basic attacks the standard instead of lazers and reaping strikes, it says, "Ok I can make an archer cleric because I am not losing anything for doing it." Thus it opens up many more character concepts than were previously available. Again this is just one of the positive effects of making at-wills into encounter powers.

So back to your point should their be a basic at-will attack for each class so they can maximize their single bloated stat in combat? I say no.

That said, I know you're already trying to move away from dailies, but yet another way to handle at-wills would be turning them into Daily "stances", activated by a minor action.

So really this changes almost nothing except that to enter an at-will stance it costs a minor action but it gives you that at-will power while in that stance. To top it off you can only enter each stance once a day? Probably not...
 

I assume that by "limiting factor" you are referring to the fact that it is a resource that only renews at the end of each day, so players have to conserve it. So as I understand it, you essentially want each encounter to stand on its own with no resources carrying over from encounter to encounter. Is this correct?

No, this is a mischaracterization of what I want to do. I am only looking at class powers here nothing else.
 

That is an irrelevant statement in the house rules forum, and doesn't add anything to the thread I'm afraid.

This thread exists because Sadrik wants to consider alternatives to the existing rules, and he can tinker with it as much and as soon as he wants.

Thanks

It does make it difficult to respond to any of his ideas in earnest. But I will take this tidbit out.

AbdulAlhazred said:
Sure, back in those days everyone basically had NOTHING BUT 'basic attacks' plus a few 'dailies'.

And they were moving toward making resources revolve around the encounter instead of the day in later development cycles. I liked that concept. You don't. Thanks for your opinion.
 

So back to your point should their be a basic at-will attack for each class so they can maximize their single bloated stat in combat? I say no.
But that's what I'm saying: The Fighter is doing that, and the archer Ranger, and the Str paladin, the Str cleric... while builds like the laser cleric and cha paladin won't be very attractive. I might be wrong, but I think you're running the risk of making some classes better than others (wich 4e arguably fixed).

Maybe it's not a problem, I don't know. I does bring back those archetypes you mentioned (and I miss them too). Either way, you deserve the benefit of the doubt: try it out and let us know.
 

That is an irrelevant statement in the house rules forum, and doesn't add anything to the thread I'm afraid.

This thread exists because Sadrik wants to consider alternatives to the existing rules, and he can tinker with it as much and as soon as he wants.

Thanks

The first step in creating a house rule should always be to consider if 1) there really is a problem, and 2) if it is a problem that a house rule can solve. The purpose of a house rules forum is to make house rules as good as they can be, and if a house rule would cause more problems than it solves, then it would be irresponsible and contrary to the purpose of a house rules forum to not question the need for a house rule.

It's perfectly reasonable to assert that what may be percieved as a problem isn't actually much of a problem in reality. Sometimes, it's better to unmake a problem than to create additional rules to negate the problem. I would suggest that a solution to a problem which has no rules is the most elegant house rule of all.
 

But that's what I'm saying: The Fighter is doing that, and the archer Ranger, and the Str paladin, the Str cleric... while builds like the laser cleric and cha paladin won't be very attractive. I might be wrong, but I think you're running the risk of making some classes better than others (which 4e arguably fixed).

Agreed, some concepts may wind up a bit more stat dependent than others. By estimation it is more boon than hindrance because it will open up more character archetypes at the cost of having to spread your stats out more.

Maybe it's not a problem, I don't know. It does bring back those archetypes you mentioned (and I miss them too). Either way, you deserve the benefit of the doubt: try it out and let us know.

I will, I still am not sure what to do with the dallies though.

I would suggest that a solution to a problem which has no rules is the most elegant house rule of all.

Then what are you doing in the house rules forum? If you prefer to play by the book you should not concern yourself with other peoples house rules.
 

Then what are you doing in the house rules forum? If you prefer to play by the book you should not concern yourself with other peoples house rules.

I'm in the house rules forum because I like reading about ways to make my game better or more interesting or more robust. It's not like the house rules forums exist so that people can make rules for the sake of having more rules. I'm just saying that "more rules" does not mean "better rules", and it's important to examine what your needs are before you make a house rule to accommodate those needs. To this end, suggesting that a house rule may not be needed is perfectly appropriate - and, perhaps, insightful - advice towards the creation of the house rule.

A basic attack is not "functionally incapable of contributing to combat". How quickly we forget what previous editions were like.

Previous editions were balanced on the assumption of characters using basic attacks, because there weren't any non-basic attacks. 4e is balanced on the assumption that characters are using at-will powers, because they have at-will powers which are better than normal attacks.
 

But that's what I'm saying: The Fighter is doing that, and the archer Ranger, and the Str paladin, the Str cleric... while builds like the laser cleric and cha paladin won't be very attractive. I might be wrong, but I think you're running the risk of making some classes better than others (wich 4e arguably fixed).

Maybe it's not a problem, I don't know. I does bring back those archetypes you mentioned (and I miss them too). Either way, you deserve the benefit of the doubt: try it out and let us know.

This is an important issue. Strength-based basic attacks becoming a de facto combat standard results in dramatic relative power of characters using strength-based powers. The starlock's dilemma of being good with half your attacks or mediocre with all of them would be applied to everybody with powers not based on strength.

This can be circumvented to a degree with feats like Intelligent Swordmage, but only to a degree - and generally speaking, the classes that have int-based powers and would benefit from Intelligent Swordmage are the classes that are the least capable of going toe to toe with anybody in melee. Heck, many 4e wizards don't even carry a melee weapon.
 

I'm in the house rules forum because I like reading about ways to make my game better or more interesting or more robust. It's not like the house rules forums exist so that people can make rules for the sake of having more rules. I'm just saying that "more rules" does not mean "better rules", and it's important to examine what your needs are before you make a house rule to accommodate those needs. To this end, suggesting that a house rule may not be needed is perfectly appropriate - and, perhaps, insightful - advice towards the creation of the house rule.
So you say he's on the verge of having badwrongfun or what?

I do not agree with his goals. But this is the house rules forum, and if someone is asking for a house rule, he wants help creating the house rule, not help in not creating a house rule at all and being educated on his "wrongness"!

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The drawbacks of removing at-wills would be that you force people into using weapons and spending ability score points (or good rolls) on abilities they normally would not need. This can have side effects like combat taking longer, since once Encounter are gone, the character is down to weaker attacks.

You will want a way to countermand this. You might want to be more generous with ability points or allow using "non-standard" ability scores.


A different idea I had would require a lot of work, so it's more "academical". Basically, over the tiers, characters become more "magical", so to speak. You start off as a pretty martial character, but depending on your class, you might get an arcane or divine encounter or daily power. At Paragon Tier, Mages and Clerics finally get their first arcane/divine At-Will, and at Epic Tier, all their At-Wills are divine or arcane.

But I think this would both disrupt the role and the power source system (the latter not such a big problem in my mind, the first one would be.)
 

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