D&D General I need some lore help for the Lord of the First (Baator)

[Sword of Spirit]

After 1e they decided to ditch Tiamat as the ruler of Avernus, and I kind of get the impression it was more of a retcon than a transition of power.

Then you get Bel firmly established. 3e lore says he actually rebelled against and took the throne from Zariel, apparently in the distant past. 2e doesn't name Zariel, but does seem to have the origin of the story.

Then you get the Forgotten Realms that has no problem taking the D&D universe and messing up continuity, despite supposedly being within that continuity. (Well, 3e wasn't, so we can give them a pass there.) Apparently, their version has Zariel only showing up in Baator very recently (ie, shortly before the Spellplague, in the 1e time-line), and taking over from Bel.

Well crap. 5e has leaned hard into the Forgotten Realms alternate continuity over the original, and I'm trying to decide what's true in my own multiverse, and it's a bit of a mess.

My first reaction is to just go with previous lore (Zariel's been imprisoned for a very long time, Bel has been the ruler all this time). But...I have all this 5e stuff (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, Chains of Asmodeus) that I might want to use, and I'm not sure how much of a hassle it will be to reject the current version and still get use out of the material. Just ignoring the 5e lore on it isn't quite clicking with what I want to do on this particular issue either.

So, for those well-versed in all of these things, what sort of creative ideas might you suggest? Any neat ways to spin the lore together better? Some explanation for the contradictions (from a planar perspective when you can actually meet these folks, not just from some people on the Prime philosophizing)?

By the way, a fun and unrelated tidbit I came across while I was collecting all this Baator material. Apparently Mephistopheles launched a fake coup, disguised himself, and took over his own throne. That's the clever way they explained how the Lord of the Eighth in 2e was Baron Molikroth without having to have a bunch of turnover.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

My preference is Zariel took power, was replaced by Bel in the coup aftermath, but Asmodeus in the previous few decades decided to reinstate Zariel to power and demote Bel to one of her Dukes. Zariel taking over from Bel has been the story since 5e’s start.

Funny enough Tyranny of Dragons had some of Zariel and Bel’s politics in action. Namely that Bel has a good relationship with Tiamat and Zariel has a bad one. As a result Zariel is trying to aid Tiamat’s plot to escape Avernus into Toril as she doesn’t want her there, Bel is trying to sabotage Tiamat’s plan cause he wants her to remain as his powerful ally.

 

[Richards]

Is it possible that in your game world, Zariel and Bel are the same entity, and he's found it useful to pretend to be two different people (perhaps for the very reason that although Tiamat doesn't get along well with Zariel, she's perfectly okay with Bel)?

Johnathan

 

[Stormonu]

Hell is a politics nightmare. History is rewritten to suit the writer, and as with many things on the Outer Planes, belief becomes reality.

That is to say, ALL of it, some or none may be true, and the lore could even possibly shift on the different layers, according to the "memories" of those lords involved. Characters may find ancient treatises that cover lore that is no longer relevant and completely contradict the current "truth". Sages and researchers may have been lied to promote certain points of hellish views.

So, you can then pick what is true now, and those bits of lore that come up in play that you don't agree with could be nothing more than propaganda, lies or part of a reality that no longer is true.

Just ask Asmodeus - he's remade and hidden his background numerous times over the span of D&D's existance.

 

[Alzrius]

Then you get Bel firmly established. 3e lore says he actually rebelled against and took the throne from Zariel, apparently in the distant past. 2e doesn't name Zariel, but does seem to have the origin of the story.

In point of fact, Zariel is repeatedly name-dropped in AD&D 2E's Guide to Hell (affiliate link), such as where it covers Bel's backstory on page 39:

As a reward, Bel was given command of all the armies of Avernus and became the right hand of Zariel, the original Lord of Avernus. Bel served Zariel faithfully for many centuries, concentrating his efforts on the Blood War as was proper. In time, Zariel came to trust her underling, and this was her undoing. In the most dramatic coup in the history of Hell, Bel turned Zariel’s court against her and then overthrew the forlorn lord. By a means that has yet to be determined (but perhaps learned during his time among the tanar’ri), Bel was able to imprison Zariel and render her powerless. He then declared himself Lord of Avernus and prepared to repel the assaults that he was sure would follow.

Much to Bel’s surprise, no ravening hordes swept into Avernus. Instead, Asmodeus sent Martinet, his constable, to meet with Bel. Martinet first congratulated Bel on his coup, praising his guile and his capacity for long-term planning. He then informed Bel that Asmodeus had decided not to ”make him burn in the Pit of Flame for all eternity.” Rather, Asmodeus would support Bel as lord, but only if he continued to fulfill his obligations to the Dark Eight. Bel, delighted that his treachery had found favor with the Dark Lord of Nessus, agreed to the terms immediately.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Thanks all! Fun ideas!

After thinking it all through and trying to grasp exactly what I did and didn't want, this is what I came up with:

-The basic gist of the Zariel story (who she is, how she fell) is as 5e has it, but ...
-It happened a very long time ago
-Bel then displaced her as 1e and 2e said (also a very long time ago)
-Recently (that 1354 DR time frame), Zariel escaped from the imprisonment Bel had her in and displaced him
-Asmodeus ordered her to keep him as an advisor but they both hate each other, as 5e says

This should end with the current 5e state of affairs, while maintaining the older lore. I just have to ditch that FR lore (that I'm not even familiar with) about how Zariel's fall was a recent thing. If I run BGiA, I'm sure I can come up with other motivations for her doing things based on FR lore.

 

[Hriston]

Tiamat rules the 1st Hell! It says so right there in my MM, and nothing WotC says will ever convince me otherwise!

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Been a planar lore junkie since the 3.5e days with a particular emphasis on Baator and infernal politics, and... Yeah, trying to square 5e's version of Zariel with the version from 2e is a pain in the rear.

Personally, I opt to split them into two separate characters:

• The 2e Zariel that fell from grace alongside Triel/Baalzebul and Belial in the ancient past, served as Lord of the First up through the Reckoning of Hell, and was then overthrown and imprisoned by Bel.
• The 5e Zariel (whom I've renamed Astarte, for my purposes), whose fall from grace and ascent to power in the Nine Hells was much more recent, more in accordance with her lore from Descent into Avernus.