D&D General Joe Manganiello: Compares Early 5E to BG 3 . How Important is Lore?

[JEB]

Maybe. I would want the setting material to tell me which it is.

There's precedent for this in 5E: Ghosts of Saltmarsh has tieflings, but they're tied to Iuz. They could certainly provide some explanation for dragonborn (@Remathilis listed a bunch of good options).

Interestingly 4e, for all its controversies about adaptations of older settings, also usually tried to find some rationale for its introductions of 4e core options.

 

[Remathilis]

The problem with the fantasy kitchen sink is that it often affects tone. If you can be anything, it's hard to maintain that sword and sorcery feel. That's why IMO the most open settings are also the most gonzo.

Counterpoint: Eberron is kitchen sink and very tightly themed with the pulp noir theme.

Also, I find the S&S element of Greyhawk is overexaggerated and mostly retroactively placed by people looking for an excuse to make it different than other traditional D&D worlds, mostly based on Gygax's own preferences for Howard over Tolkien. There is nothing in Greyhawk that is exceptionally S&S or grim-and-gritty that wasn't a part of the D&D ruleset at the time and if Greyhawk was a true S&S setting it would look a lot more like Primeval Thule. Simply put, there is too much magic (even in AD&D) for S&S to ever be anything more than varnish.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There's precedent for this in 5E: Ghosts of Saltmarsh has tieflings, but they're tied to Iuz. They could certainly provide some explanation for dragonborn (@Remathilis listed a bunch of good options).

Interestingly 4e, for all its controversies about adaptations of older settings, also usually tried to find some rationale for its introductions of 4e core options.

Which is why PoLand was a great, new setting, designed to accommodate the game it was part of.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Counterpoint: Eberron is kitchen sink and very tightly themed with the pulp noir theme.

Also, I find the S&S element of Greyhawk is overexaggerated and mostly retroactively placed by people looking for an excuse to make it different than other traditional D&D worlds, mostly based on Gygax's own preferences for Howard over Tolkien. There is nothing in Greyhawk that is exceptionally S&S or grim-and-gritty that wasn't a part of the D&D ruleset at the time and if Greyhawk was a true S&S setting it would look a lot more like Primeval Thule. Simply put, there is too much magic (even in AD&D) for S&S to ever be anything more than varnish.

Fair enough, but honestly I'm not convinced Gygax ever intended high level casters to ever be PCs outside of his home campaign. Those high level spells on the chart were for NPCs.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The thing about the tone of Sword and Sorcery is that I see it as almost requiring there to be a kitchen sink setting. The world is strange and dangerous and we don't know what's out there. The enemy in the mirror can become the ally or even the ally of convenience; this isn't Heroic Fantasy and there are no "true" good guys. And that the world is so mapped that you can say "that race is too strange for this setting because it isn't in Gazetteer #5". A Sword & Sorcery setting isn't mapped like Eberron or The Forgotten Realms - but curation of individuals (as opposed to organisations - and even then let's not forget the crashed spaceship in Barrier Peaks) is entirely antithetical to what I see as the spirit of S&S.

There's far less danger in kitchen sinks than in opposition to kitchen sinks.

 

[Rystefn]

The problem with the fantasy kitchen sink is that it often affects tone. If you can be anything, it's hard to maintain that sword and sorcery feel. That's why IMO the most open settings are also the most gonzo.

Greyhawk was always a gonzo setting. That is its point and purpose. That's the whole thing that distinguishes it, as a setting. It was the "all-in and anything goes" setting before you and I and anyone else in the conversation ever heard of it. Attempts to make it something else are fanfic retcons.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We should understand when Greyhawk and Mystara setting were created, it was by the first generation, and they lack enough experencie to give more coherence but allowing enough space for diversity.

If variant PC are now oficial in 5e, then we could introduce "variant greyspaces", for example a wildspace where Oerth is more steapunk, other more close to Hyrborean age, or a version "primalpunk" (Dark Sun) of Greyhawk. How would be a variant Krynnspace under the influence of isekai mangas about reincarnated within a fiction work?

The lore should be a source of inspiration to create your own stories, not a strait jacket.

Hasbro really worries about the lore of D&D but because they want this to become a multimedia franchise.

 

[Mournblade94]

So I think this is pretty controversial thing to say.

• The Temple of Elemental Evil was never set in the realms before so isn’t invalidating anything.
• The Tomb of Horrors was never set in the realms before and ToA is an entirely new layout and setup
• Curse of Strahd has nothing to do with the realms (and is pretty damn amazing)
• Ghosts of Saltmarsh has nothing to do with the realms.

Everything else is original. How on earth are reprints cash grabs or lacking originality? Curse of Strahd, Saltmarsh, and Tomb of Horrors are the best campaigns I’ve played in for 5e. They dramatically expand the original adventure and bring it up to date. I couldn’t face a re-run of Elemental Evil because the 3e one was so mentally scarring. Some things need a reprint!

Temple of Elemental Evil was SHOEHORNED into the Realms. It should not have been sent there.
Tomb of Horrors was Greyhawk. Larloch is the most powerful Lich in the Forgotten Realms. Now Acerak is causing problems in Faerun, so it DOES invalidate the Lore of the realms. Tomb of Horrors wasn't the problem as much as Acerak. Placing Acerak in the REALMS was the cash grab. They didn't have faith in the Tomb of Horrors on their own. Tomb of Annihilation should have been Greyhawk.

If Ghosts of Saltmarsh and Strahd had nothing to do with the realms.. well then I wasn't talking about them in the first place.

 

[Mournblade94]

Dragonlance is a setting for the D&D game. It is not an independent IP that has been adapted to use the D&D system. (such as Star Wars using the Storyteller system). As a supplement to D&D, the setting supports the game, not vice versa.

It was a supplement to a game that was compatable with it. AD&D. Maybe Dragonlance isnt very compatable with 5e. Obviously Forgtten Reams wasn't compatable with 4e because they had to change so much of it. Maybe they needed to make a new setting for 5e.

 

[Mournblade94]

Counterpoint: Eberron is kitchen sink and very tightly themed with the pulp noir theme.

I don't think we can call Eberron Kitchen Sink. That is full technology levels above a traditional Medieval Setting.