I really don't think it should be called the "ORC license"

[aramis erak]

I thought Shannon Applecline's Designers and Dragons: the 90s, said White Wolf's big years vs D&D were actually the early 90s. By the late 90s, M:tG had eaten every RPG publisher's lunch, including WW.

MTG isn't an RPG. Comparing it is like comparing oranges and limes... same family (citrus, games) but very different flavors and uses, with a small overlap.
While there was a hit to RPGs from MTG, it doesn't seem as deep as Mr. Applecline implies. (And Applecline's echoing a lot of chicken-little sentiment of the era. Many D&Ders felt it was the apocalypse for D&D.) Most of the MTG players I knew in that era were also playing RPGs. Myself included. Most of the people I knew did both. It did massively reduce my boardgaming, and the number of one-shot RPGs... but I was running two steady RPG sessions a week. And working 3/4 FTE.

There was also a benefit to MTG: people who only gamed as a social activity generally shifted to MTG. And annoyed the competitive MTGers, rather than taking a seat in my living room and giving me the constant "Uh, what should I do?"

MTG kept many game stores afloat. Other CCGs also helped. Board games helped, too.

There were still large D&D events at major cons during the late 90s. And even at minor ones - the cons in Anchorage... 1998, IIRC, there were 6 tables of D&D, 2 of WWG, 6 of WFB, 8 of 40k, 2 of Blood Bowl, 1 of FASA ST III Ship Combat, and my 4 of tournament module SFB... (I remember the event clearly, but not which year precisely, 97 to 99, based upon where I was living, and that I gave up SFB when my eldest was 1.)

It is fair to say that, without MTG, D&D wouldn't have been bought by WotC... but it would still have been sold to someone. The question is merely to whom, and for how much?

 

[Reynard]

MTG isn't an RPG. Comparing it is like comparing oranges and limes... same family (citrus, games) but very different flavors and uses, with a small overlap.
While there was a hit to RPGs from MTG, it doesn't seem as deep as Mr. Applecline implies. (And Applecline's echoing a lot of chicken-little sentiment of the era. Many D&Ders felt it was the apocalypse for D&D.) Most of the MTG players I knew in that era were also playing RPGs. Myself included. Most of the people I knew did both. It did massively reduce my boardgaming, and the number of one-shot RPGs... but I was running two steady RPG sessions a week. And working 3/4 FTE.

There was also a benefit to MTG: people who only gamed as a social activity generally shifted to MTG. And annoyed the competitive MTGers, rather than taking a seat in my living room and giving me the constant "Uh, what should I do?"

MTG kept many game stores afloat. Other CCGs also helped. Board games helped, too.

There were still large D&D events at major cons during the late 90s. And even at minor ones - the cons in Anchorage... 1998, IIRC, there were 6 tables of D&D, 2 of WWG, 6 of WFB, 8 of 40k, 2 of Blood Bowl, 1 of FASA ST III Ship Combat, and my 4 of tournament module SFB... (I remember the event clearly, but not which year precisely, 97 to 99, based upon where I was living, and that I gave up SFB when my eldest was 1.)

It is fair to say that, without MTG, D&D wouldn't have been bought by WotC... but it would still have been sold to someone. The question is merely to whom, and for how much?

Game stores stopped ordering RPGs in favor of CCGs, Magic in particular but others as well. This is documented fact. And we know that the Magic crash killed stores (the ones that survived were mostly killed by the d20 crash).

But my point was that WW specifically overtook (or threatened to) D&D in the early-mid 90s, not the end of the 90s. The lat 90s belonged (financially) to M;tG.

 

[aramis erak]

Game stores stopped ordering RPGs in favor of CCGs, Magic in particular but others as well. This is documented fact. And we know that the Magic crash killed stores (the ones that survived were mostly killed by the d20 crash).

Not in all places. Anchorage, 2 of the 4 game stores kept a wide variety of RPGs stocked.
Corvallis, since I came down several times in the 90s, both Trump's Hobbies and The Book Bin kept RPGs stocked - tho' neither had them as their prime business. Seattle, the one bookstore I hit in the late 90's had RPGs on the shelf. In all cases, mostly not D&D.

 

[Reynard]

Not in all places. Anchorage, 2 of the 4 game stores kept a wide variety of RPGs stocked.
Corvallis, since I came down several times in the 90s, both Trump's Hobbies and The Book Bin kept RPGs stocked - tho' neither had them as their prime business. Seattle, the one bookstore I hit in the late 90's had RPGs on the shelf. In all cases, mostly not D&D.

You know what they call anecdotes, right?

 

[Aldarc]

Double-post.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, next time you have an opportunity, give the last one a shot. Just need a little yellow mustard and some Southern-style cole slaw (sweet, not vinegary). Seems weird at first, but it's sooooooooooo good.

Pretty close to North Carolina-style hamburgers and hot dogs: meat chili (no beans or corn/maize), coleslaw, onions, and mustard. (Additionally, cheese optional with hamburgers.)

 

[deganawida]

Pretty close to North Carolina-style hamburgers and hot dogs: meat chili (no beans or corn/maize), coleslaw, onions, and mustard. (Additionally, cheese optional with hamburgers.)

Oh, man, we have a Cook Out in town, and I was convinced to try one of those. It was heaven!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

IME, in the late 90's (post-96) AD&D was still heavily played, despite the low sales numbers.

At least 70% of people playing D&D, judging from what my friends and players were also playing. F And based upon what the local "Gamer's Guild" was listing on their contact lists - 90% of people were willing to play D&D, and around 80% listed only D&D; that was a list of 300 people, in a bourough of 350k people, and more than 2/3 of my players were NOT on that list. Almost everyone was able to find a D&D group; finding a Traveller, Cyberpunk, or Torg group was "know da right peoples or fuggedaboudit..." so, a reasonable estimate of Anchorage's RPG gamers was about 600 to 900 people... in 1998. And 90% were willing to play D&D.

I mean, that might be so in Anchorage (presumably AK), but I suspect there might have been a lot of other factors in play there. Age particularly. That you're not even mentioning WW games in the mid-late '90s, that you have Torg of all things mentioned, really suggests to me that however that list was generated, it was basically a de facto relict population from the very early 1990s. Or something pretty weird was happening there.

I don't doubt AD&D was more widely played than sales reflected, but when you've got a situation where it's the late '90s and WW games are behind Torg? That's wacky.

I suspect your estimate of the population gaming might well be right. I suspect your belief that the 300-600 "off list" players were all/mostly playing D&D, though, is... questionable. Let alone Torg or Traveller or the like. I would suspect an awful lot of them, especially the younger ones, were playing WoD games and the like.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'm fine with ORC as long as companies can clearly identify what is their intellectual property, what's the "Product Identity" of their setting as it where, and have some sort of secondary license that gives some sort of exemption to allow 3PP to use aspects of there Product Identity.

So if you wanted to say publish something set in Golarion but weren't Paizo, you would need ORC and PIE.

 

[Kai Lord]

I think going forward I'll probably divide my purchases and go half-OGL and half-ORC.