D&D General I really LOVE Stomping Goblins

[Vaalingrade]

Your truly evil villain can also be nuanced and complicated and still be totally ok to kill. I don't understand why you are equating nuance with "can't be inherently evil."

Either they're nuanced and have a reason for their evil or they're 'inherently evil' and doing evil is just what they do.

If they had nuanced reasons, then they weren't 'inherently' doing it.

 

[Jack Daniel]

There are plenty of places in current fantasy where that's not true, as well. In lots of media and games, goblins are still stompable little maniacs. It's not as if some fundamentally true interpretation of goblins has emerged to enlighten us. They are what we say they are when we choose to employ them. I can make goblins good as easily as I can make unicorns evil and vice versa.

Goombas. Goombas are stompable little maniacs, and they're worth 100 points each. (Then 200, 400, 500, 800... stomp enough of the blighters in a row and you start earning 1UPs!)

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Either they're nuanced and have a reason for their evil or they're 'inherently evil' and doing evil is just what they do.

If they had nuanced reasons, then they weren't 'inherently' doing it.

If someone wants a good example of this in pop culture, Dracula from the Castlevania tv series on Netflix demonstrates it very well. He's not "inherently evil", but definitely needs to be killed in order for humanity to survive. You can have complicated villains that are tragic, but not complicated, "inherently evil" villains.

 

[Oofta]

I mean, this kind of encapsulates what needs to be understood here.

Can one play a non-lethal character?

Grappling, Enchanting, Sleeping, Charming, Polymorph....

Sure thing!

But unless clarified real early, I'd argue the default state here is pretty much crystal clear.

We got swords, we got fireballs, we got Devils and Demons, and Evil Gods.

This isn't Debates & Deferral.

This is Dungeons & Dragons.

Why did I have the image in my head of you kicking someone into a pit as you yelled "This is Dungeons & Dragons!"

 

[Oofta]

When it comes to prisoners, I just explain that there are no prisons for the vast majority of people. If a person is arrested, they may be held until a trial but punishment is usually swift and by modern standards, brutal. Prisons and long term incarceration for any but the wealthy and powerful is a recent development historically.

That and my campaign world is harsh. Humans and their allies are in a constant struggle for survival after a cataclysm wiped out 2/3 of the population. Hanging on by a thread, there's very little room for mercy. Let a prisoner go and they will run for reinforcements. Even if they don't, odds are they'll pull a Saving Private Ryan where the prisoner later mercilessly kills a comrade. Tie them up and you're just leaving them to starve to death or be eaten by whatever predator happens by.

I think it's simply more realistic in most cases. There are exceptions to all rules of course, including this one.

 

[Umbran]

But unless clarified real early, I'd argue the default state here is pretty much crystal clear.

We got swords, we got fireballs, we got Devils and Demons, and Evil Gods.

This isn't Debates & Deferral.

This is Dungeons & Dragons.

So, with respect, I think you might be a bit blinded by your personal perspective as a long-time player.

A few years ago, I taught my goddaughter to play, with a friend of hers, her father, and my wife making up the rest of the party. The image of fantasy she had included swords, fireballs, demons, evil gods and all that... but graphic and clear death wasn't a common thing.

Media aimed at younger folks doesn't include graphic death very often. Back in the 80s, in G.I. Joe cartoons, Cobra soldiers always had parachutes when their aircraft got shot down, and with tons of laser blasts around, few people clearly got shot, much less died.

And in 2018, She Ra and the Princesses of Power have swords, blasters, and all that, scenes with armored vehicles getting blown up... but the field isn't littered with corpses. The swords aren't covered in blood. The heroine's main weapon is a sword, and I can't recall her actually stabbing any actual people with it.

So, maybe this fixation on death in the game isn't quite so clear, because in lots of media, it isn't.

You may like lots of death around. That's fine. But don't assume that's really the clear default way to play.

 

[Umbran]

I'm very happy that works for you, but I can't think of a single player I've met over the age of 10 who would buy that. It would seem extremely unrealistic.

My goddaughter I just referenced was 13 when I taught her, by the way, and having enemies "defeated" and no longer an issue was fine.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So, with respect, I think you might be a bit blinded by your personal perspective as a long-time player.

A few years ago, I taught my goddaughter to play, with a friend of hers, her father, and my wife making up the rest of the party. The image of fantasy she had included swords, fireballs, demons, evil gods and all that... but graphic and clear death wasn't a common thing.

Media aimed at younger folks doesn't include graphic death very often. Back in the 80s, in G.I. Joe cartoons, Cobra soldiers always had parachutes when their aircraft got shot down, and with tons of laser blasts around, few people clearly got shot, much less died.

And in 2018, She Ra and the Princesses of Power have swords, blasters, and all that, scenes with armored vehicles getting blown up... but the field isn't littered with corpses. The swords aren't covered in blood. The heroine's main weapon is a sword, and I can't recall her actually stabbing any actual people with it.

So, maybe this fixation on death in the game isn't quite so clear, because in lots of media, it isn't.

You may like lots of death around. That's fine. But don't assume that's really the clear default way to play.

And it is great that the game can be played like that. And as long as it can be played in more gritty style as well, everything is absolutely fine. D&D can and should support both She-Ra style and Witcher style games.

 

[Reynard]

Either they're nuanced and have a reason for their evil or they're 'inherently evil' and doing evil is just what they do.

If they had nuanced reasons, then they weren't 'inherently' doing it.

Well, I didn't say anything about motivations at all. I said that nuance, complexity and personality were still possible with inherently evil entities. But now that you mention it, their motivations for the particular evil they are committing can certainly be nuanced and complex. This idea that "inherently evil" means it isn't a character isn't just wrong, it's ridiculous in the face of mountains of counter examples in myth, legend, literature, art and, yes, even games.

 

[Scribe]

So, maybe this fixation on death in the game isn't quite so clear, because in lots of media, it isn't.

You may like lots of death around. That's fine. But don't assume that's really the clear default way to play.

I'd 100% agree that more recent media, certainly anything not expressly marketed towards adults, is not going to reflect the reality of what implements designed and created to render another being dead, is going to mean, and that fireballs and lightning are but a flesh wound.

Its not a fixation on death however, but as adults, well its like I hoped to make clear with the MMA/Boxing comparison.

There are other sports (NFL/NHL) which several years ago bent themselves into all kinds of interesting shapes via mental gymnastics, regarding the safety of the men participating. It was denial due to a desire to avoid legal consequences.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who watched a season of the NFL should quickly be able to see, that it was all talk. Limbs are ruined, joints are destroyed, and brains are damaged. Every year. Almost every game.

MMA and ESPECIALLY Boxing, make few if any mentions of this risk, because again, any adult who watches these sports (or indeed has participated and has the multiple concussions, dislocations and broken bones to reflect upon after...) knows whats up.

You box long enough? You will have brain trauma. Period.

If I as an adult, strike a creature in the neck with a sword, with force and intent, I have a good idea whats about to happen.

Now can we hand wave or off screen, or simply disregard it for people who dont want to accept that? Sure, the NFL did too.