D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

I don't get why social influence is always associated with conmen and manipulators.

Social influence is also that football coach who inspires you to play harder than you know you could. That friend who helps lift you out of depression. The mentor who shows you that track you are on is the wrong one. The squad leader who helps you get it together. The family member who returns the support you give them. The partner who believes in you when you don't believe in yourself.

This is social influence:

So is this:
 
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I mean your not SUPPOSED to like a con man getting you to do something... that's the thing when the grift is found out you should feel like you were controlled
It’s not really about liking it, it is about coherent immersion based on the idea of the character. Being conned doesn’t feel like mind control, it feels like great idea at the moment. If the GMs presentation of the situation doesn’t feel like that to the immersed POV of my character, then the GM rolling 27 doesn’t change that. Being forced to go along will break my immersion and violate my character concept.
 

I don't agree with that. Changing the rules fundamentally alters how game play happens, which the vast majority of the time also impacts the fiction. I think it's every bit as powerful.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. As a GM from personal experience I know which one gives me more control over the narrative, and as I speaking from personal anecdote and experience no amount of argument on your part is going to convince me my own experience didn't happen.

But in an effort to not leave it there, I'll try to make a couple of arguments as to why you are wrong.

1) Rulings are public and "fudging the fiction" isn't. This is a very powerful advantage that altering the fiction has over rulings if my intention is to maintain control over the narrative. Whenever you publicly usurp player agency you are risking player revolt and at the very least player dissatisfaction. You really can't afford to offer up many unfair rulings without completely losing player trust. But you can definitely fudge the fiction as much as you want and if you aren't stupid about it the players will be none the wiser. This is huge advantage in power level compared to rulings because I can wield the power and not be challenged on it.

2) Most rulings by a good GM don't actually assert much or any sort of force over the fiction. A lot of my rulings come down to, if you boil it down to the essentials, "The rules are vague here, flip a coin." Leaving the result up to a fortune check is not nearly as powerful of control over the narrative as altering the fiction. At most a ruling says, "No." to a player proposition, but again, it's a public "No" and you have to justify it in a way you don't have to justify 4 new orcs appearing from a previously unseen room to join the fight. The only way to "check" the integrity of that is to look at my notes, and that's generally something considered out of bounds.

3) Umbran said there was no way to measure fiat and strictly speaking he's right, but I think we could as D&D players measure fiat by analogy to PC spell use. If the GM's usurpation of the narrative were a spell being used by a player to assert force over the fiction, what level spell would it be? Like what level would you assign to a spell that was trying to do the same thing like add hit points to a target or increase the DC of a roll or summon 8 new orcs or create an entirely new previously not there passageway complete with an autolocking door that closes behind the villain as he runs away. I think if you look at it like that with a humorous but reasoned eye you'll see on the whole just how much more narrative force you are asserting as a GM over the game when you create fiction than when you make a ruling. Most rulings effectively only slightly alter the odds of success of a proposition, and as I said don't necessarily involve any attempt to gain narrative control at all. All alterations of the fiction are attempts to gain narrative control.

Fudging is both rules and fictional fiat, as a change to the number of hit points that the dragon has affects both the rules AND the fictional dragon.

It's not necessarily against the rules to give a creature more hit points. If I adjust the griffins hit points from 40 to 60 on the fly, that's still probably going to be within the range of normal hit points for a griffin.

However, adjusting the hit points of a monster whose hit points had be previously secretly established is not a ruling at all. It it is however taking control of the fiction.
 

IMO, players in an RPG should be able to handle losing a social contest and having to give up some thing or do some thing their character would rather not but was forced to. it happens all the time in the inspirational fiction.
I place this under the general category of players hating to lose any control over their character. If they rolled well on a bluff check but I had the PC still act with suspicion, they'd be upset. But if the NPC rolls well, the PCs will still treat the NPC with suspicion.

do you not believe in people that are just able to talk you into things? Even disregarding grifter/conmen what about simple salesmen. Have you never seen a salesman sell someone something they don't need?
Oh, certainly. I've had people make persuasive arguments that led to me changing my mind about something, I've been successfully lied to, I've been cheated, and I'm sure all that will happen again. There are, however, limits to what one might accomplish with mere words no matter how much of a golden tongue they possess. You are not going to talk Julius Ceasar out of conquoring Gaul by arguing that it's immoral or asking him to think of the children. You might be able to talk him out of it by presenting him with a richer target or one that would gain him more popularity in Rome.

My general rule for social skills is that they are not mind control. I don't care how skilled you are, you need to understand something about your target in order to persuade them into doing what you want. Ceasar wants to accumulate wealth for the purpose of building his political power, and you're not going to talk him out of attacking Gaul without giving him an alternative that will help him with his goals.
 



We're probably going to have to agree to disagree. As a GM from personal experience I know which one gives me more control over the narrative, and as I speaking from personal anecdote and experience no amount of argument on your part is going to convince me my own experience didn't happen.

But in an effort to not leave it there, I'll try to make a couple of arguments as to why you are wrong.

1) Rulings are public and "fudging the fiction" isn't. This is a very powerful advantage that altering the fiction has over rulings if my intention is to maintain control over the narrative. Whenever you publicly usurp player agency you are risking player revolt and at the very least player dissatisfaction. You really can't afford to offer up many unfair rulings without completely losing player trust. But you can definitely fudge the fiction as much as you want and if you aren't stupid about it the players will be none the wiser. This is huge advantage in power level compared to rulings because I can wield the power and not be challenged on it.
Reading that paragraph it seems like you are talking about railroading, which yes, is both abhorrent and robs player agency so that the DM can control the narrative. Railroading includes illusionism that's virtually undetectable. That's not what I think of when I speak about DM fiat, though I suppose it is an abuse of it.

When I talk about DM fiat and fictional changes, I'm talking about 1 of 2 things.

First, the DM changing the lore or fudging something. An example would be a DM stating that the Spellplague didn't happen in his Forgotten Realms. I did that. Another example would be the DM who placed an ancient dragon for the party to encounter, but because he knows that the party is down more resources than expected due to poor rolling, changes it to an adult dragon to make it a challenging encounter, rather than one that will probably kill a PC or two.

Second, the rules change that affects the fiction. This would be the DM only realizing that the ancient dragon was beyond the player resources after the encounter has begun, and lowering the AC and some hit points to make the fight easier. Or making it so that his game uses the Gritty Realism rules. These are rules changes that also change the fiction.

The DM fiat you describe above is already covered under the term Railroading, so think it just confuses things to include it here as well by a different name.
2) Most rulings by a good GM don't actually assert much or any sort of force over the fiction. A lot of my rulings come down to, if you boil it down to the essentials, "The rules are vague here, flip a coin." Leaving the result up to a fortune check is not nearly as powerful of control over the narrative as altering the fiction. At most a ruling says, "No." to a player proposition, but again, it's a public "No" and you have to justify it in a way you don't have to justify 4 new orcs appearing from a previously unseen room to join the fight. The only way to "check" the integrity of that is to look at my notes, and that's generally something considered out of bounds.
I don't understand the assertion that leaving it up to fortune is not nearly as powerful as altering the fiction. Almost every change to a rule via a ruling is going to have profound effects on the fiction, regardless of the method of introduction(random chance vs. choosing).

Let's take the infinite wish simulacrum hack. If you rule that it doesn't work, it drastically changes the capability of wizards to interact with the world in a major, major, visible way. They no longer can. If you rule that it does work, then wizards can easily reshape reality on a daily basis. Unless you rule that the first wizard to figure out the trick used 100000 or so wishes to ensure that anyone who tries it later fails and dies. It doesn't matter whether you rule for or against it by chance or intentionally, the fiction is going to be affected in a large way.
3) Umbran said there was no way to measure fiat and strictly speaking he's right, but I think we could as D&D players measure fiat by analogy to PC spell use. If the GM's usurpation of the narrative were a spell being used by a player to assert force over the fiction, what level spell would it be? Like what level would you assign to a spell that was trying to do the same thing like add hit points to a target or increase the DC of a roll or summon 8 new orcs or create an entirely new previously not there passageway complete with an autolocking door that closes behind the villain as he runs away. I think if you look at it like that with a humorous but reasoned eye you'll see on the whole just how much more narrative force you are asserting as a GM over the game when you create fiction than when you make a ruling. Most rulings effectively only slightly alter the odds of success of a proposition, and as I said don't necessarily involve any attempt to gain narrative control at all. All alterations of the fiction are attempts to gain narrative control.
Well, yeah. The DM has the ability to drop mountains on a city just because he says, "A group of cultists uncovered a rare tome that taught them how to do it." DM fiat is tremendously powerful, which is why it is both the best tool in the DM's toolbox and the most dangerous if abused. It's not really measurable, but we can estimate that rulings that change both rules and the fiction are at least as powerful as those that only change the fiction.
It's not necessarily against the rules to give a creature more hit points. If I adjust the griffins hit points from 40 to 60 on the fly, that's still probably going to be within the range of normal hit points for a griffin.

However, adjusting the hit points of a monster whose hit points had be previously secretly established is not a ruling at all. It it is however taking control of the fiction.
An alteration of the rules by the DM falls under the "rulings over rules" mantra. "Rulings" in the context that 5e uses the term isn't just for adjudicating rules issues. It's also rules changes. Fudging is in the DMG as a DM tool in 5e by the way, so a DM altering hit point after being previously established would not be a ruling, it would be RAW.
 


This caught my attention. I want to LARP my idea of my character so if the game gets on the way of that then I’m not going to like it.

If you have a conception of character before play that is inviolate and play is expected to facilitate (rather than dispute or test) your portrayal/conception, then the sort of social conflict mechanics invoked by the thread aren’t something you’re going to be interested in (from prior conversation, that is roughly where you land).

Those kinds of social conflict mechanics will entail a level of “system’s say” and “other participants say” that will influence your player prerogatives and character conception (which is the point!).
 

Not in RPGs. Outside of some sort of magical/chemical control of the PCs, players in RPGs have agency over what their PCs think, say and do(or at least attempt to do).

Not always true. My Spire campaign saw our Knight PC go through quite the transformation over the course of play.

He started off as a hardened killer, willing to do harsh things that others would balk at. He had an altruistic squire who was eager to please him.

As a result of play, the squire was killed in the first battle the Knight let him be involved in. This left the Knight with an ongoing mental consequence called “Permanently Weird”. We decided that he continued to see and speak to his dead Squire in social situations. He could suppress this if he wanted, but it required that he take some Mind Stress.

Before long, he suffered another Fallout as a result of play. This was the “Dying” Fallout. It gives the player the option to either take one final action with an advantage and then die, or else claw their way back to life, but to come back changed in some way. We decided that the Knight’s mind basically shattered at this point, and he actually believed that he was the Squire. The Squire “ghost” took over and the player played him as an altruistic young man rather than the hardened killer the Knight was.

So a total shift from the character’s starting disposition and traits. It had a huge impact on play, and was central to the events that followed.

It would never have happened in a game like D&D where the character concept is inviolate and is never at risk in play.

I can guarantee you that I would never even consider playing a game where some random NPC could walk up and force my PC to do something he would never do.

Are there such games? Is anyone advocating for such an extreme take? From what I’ve read most folks seem to be speaking more about PCs being susceptible to outside influence in some way, or for a system that at least approaches that in some way.
 

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