i see dead people?

[evilbob]

In an effort to avoid hijacking TYPO's thread on sending completely, I just want to put this more specific issue out there to anyone to comment: can you send a message to someone who is dead, or call them using the planar ally/binding spells? Technically, the planar ally spell says you can ask for a specific outsider if you know them by name. And technically, according to core planar mythos, dead people just go to another plane when they die and become outsiders. It seems like it's feasible.

However, this whole concept just seems very, very wrong. For one, why bother raising someone and making them lose a level, when you can just call them and have them fight as an outsider for a while? "Hey, mind to help us out until we get enough cash together to get you true resurected?" (Sure, they'd have to worry about being destroyed forever instead of killed again, but it's probably worth not losing a level for a little bit of risk.) And if you can speak with / call dead people, why aren't wizards and clerics doing it all the time? People should be lined up outside of every temple or magic shop(pe), waiting for their turn to talk to their dead uncle! No murder would ever go unsolved! Kings could rule for all of time! Heroes could be brought back as outsiders to battle their own reanimated corpses! The implications are limitless.

Or is there just some generic RP reason why this doesn't happen, like "dead people never bother to talk to living people" or "dieties never allow planar allies to be dead people" or "the DM hates you for asking this stupid question" or some such stuff?

Others' thoughts?

 

[moritheil]

In an effort to avoid hijacking TYPO's thread on sending completely, I just want to put this more specific issue out there to anyone to comment: can you send a message to someone who is dead, or call them using the planar ally/binding spells? Technically, the planar ally spell says you can ask for a specific outsider if you know them by name. And technically, according to core planar mythos, dead people just go to another plane when they die and become outsiders. It seems like it's feasible.

However, this whole concept just seems very, very wrong. For one, why bother raising someone and making them lose a level, when you can just call them and have them fight as an outsider for a while? "Hey, mind to help us out until we get enough cash together to get you true resurected?" (Sure, they'd have to worry about being destroyed forever instead of killed again, but it's probably worth not losing a level for a little bit of risk.) And if you can speak with / call dead people, why aren't wizards and clerics doing it all the time? People should be lined up outside of every temple or magic shop(pe), waiting for their turn to talk to their dead uncle! No murder would ever go unsolved! Kings could rule for all of time! Heroes could be brought back as outsiders to battle their own reanimated corpses! The implications are limitless.

Or is there just some generic RP reason why this doesn't happen, like "dead people never bother to talk to living people" or "dieties never allow planar allies to be dead people" or "the DM hates you for asking this stupid question" or some such stuff?

Others' thoughts?

1. Petitioners suck. Hands down. Take a look at their stats; they aren't going to be any help in a fight at that level.
2. Petitioners are tied to their plane. (Also see the above link.) Thus, it shouldn't be possible to conjure them out.
3. Having said all that, if you want to houserule otherwise for a zany campaign, have fun!

 

[evilbob]

Besides the fact that I don't think everyone is turned into a petitioner when they die, this is still a good thing for people who just want to communicate with the dead. Again: no murder is unsolved! Kings rule for all of time!

 

[moritheil]

Besides the fact that I don't think everyone is turned into a petitioner when they die, this is still a good thing for people who just want to communicate with the dead. Again: no murder is unsolved! Kings rule for all of time!

Well . . . IMC I always assume that most murders go unsolved due to a lack of resources, not due to an actual technical impossibility (sadly, this mirrors real life pretty well.)

As for kings ruling for all time, you have to decide whether the magic existed first or the traditions of kingship existed first. If the traditions of kingship dictate that the king is only king until he passes on, then that's not a problem. Heck, it could be neat to have a king say, "Oh man, this problem reminds me of something my great-grandfather dealt with. Wizard, how soon can you set me up to talk to him?"

 

[Joshua Randall]

I know this is going to get me tarred-and-feathered, but I strongly believe that the intent of the rules is that you cannot use spells like sending or planar ally on (the souls of) dead characters.

 

[moritheil]

I know this is going to get me tarred-and-feathered, but I strongly believe that the intent of the rules is that you cannot use spells like sending or planar ally on (the souls of) dead characters.

I have neither tar nor feathers for you. I can understand your objection to planar ally (and as I mentioned, I'd just say, "It fails," pointing to the petitioner rules.) What precisely is wrong with sending, though? It still has a DM-adjustable failure rate, making it less than reliable.

 

[boolean]

What precisely is wrong with sending, though? It still has a DM-adjustable failure rate, making it less than reliable.

Don't standard petitioners also lose all memories of their prior life? (Speak With Dead implies that memory remains with the body.)

So, what good would sending do?

 

[Joshua Randall]

Sending's first line: "You contact a particular creature with which you are familiar..." (emphasis added)

Bringing Back the Dead: Several spells have the power to restore slain characters to life.

When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature’s deity resides. If the creature did not worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment. Bringing someone back from the dead means retrieving his or her soul and returning it to his or her body.

(emphasis added)

OK, I had to struggle to find some written support, but here it is. A creature <> its soul. The soul ends up on one of the outer planes, not the creature. Sending contacts a creature. Therefor sending does not work on dead people.

Yeah. That's a pretty crappy argument, but it's the best I've got.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

A creature <> its soul.

You open up a HUGE metaphysical argument here. Restricting ourselves to D@D metaphysics, this is explicitly not true of Solars... in which case Creature = Soul.

The answer to the OP question is VERY campaign specific.

For one, why bother raising someone and making them lose a level, when you can just call them and have them fight as an outsider for a while? "Hey, mind to help us out until we get enough cash together to get you true resurected?" (Sure, they'd have to worry about being destroyed forever instead of killed again, but it's probably worth not losing a level for a little bit of risk.)

Sounds like a whole lot of risk, and doesn't work - see Petitioner.

Well . . . IMC I always assume that most murders go unsolved due to a lack of resources, not due to an actual technical impossibility (sadly, this mirrors real life pretty well.)

Actually, In the USA most states have "solved" Homicides approximately 75-90% of the time. Successful prosecution is a different matter. If there is no major suspect within the first 72 hours however, the odds of the case not being "solved" within 10 years are substantial.

 

[IcyCool]

You open up a HUGE metaphysical argument here. Restricting ourselves to D@D metaphysics, this is explicitly not true of Solars... in which case Creature = Soul.

Well, yes and no.

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature - its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.

So Body does not necessarily equal soul, but "soul and body form one unit".

Also, "An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane."