D&D 5E I think I finally get how hiding works

[fjw70]

Right. Most posters seem to take this as "obscured" in the colloquial sense, not the game mechanic sense. It's more like they can hide with half-cover from another creature larger than them (there's no rules mentioned for interposing creatures giving any other kind of cover, regardless of size difference.) Again, still rather muddy, but seems to be the common interpretation.

Melkor's example would still apply to an wood elf lightly obscured by bushes, though. However, in that case, it's pretty clear even the Passive Perception check should have disadvantage for the initial Hide attempt. It's just the DM has to remember to do it. If the elf snipes and hides in the same spot, it'd be reasonable to have the disadvantages cancel out - it's harder to see through the bushes, but the target has a pretty good idea where to look. Hide and Perception are both rolled normally.

That would make it easier for the elf to hide in a lightly obscured area than a heavily obscured one. I don't think that was the intent of the rule.

 

[Sir Brennen]

That would make it easier for the elf to hide in a lightly obscured area than a heavily obscured one. I don't think that was the intent of the rule.

Hmm... good point.

So, that makes me ask... when does disadvantage on a Perception check for lightly obscured areas apply? Weirdly, not for creatures using the Hide action, since you can't see them anyway.

I guess one way to clarify the whole Hide vs. Perception scenario - a success on Perception does not necessarily imply you see the hiding creature, only that you become aware of them and their general location. This maybe by visual cues, or it may not.

 

[fjw70]

Hmm... good point.

So, that makes me ask... when does disadvantage on a Perception check for lightly obscured areas apply? Weirdly, not for creatures using the Hide action, since you can't see them anyway.

It would apply to things like finding secret doors, traps, and tracking.

 

[Melkor]

That would make it easier for the elf to hide in a lightly obscured area than a heavily obscured one. I don't think that was the intent of the rule.

Wouldn't the elf be able to hide automatically in a Heavily Obscured area since the person who might perceive them would be given the Blinded condition?

"A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see the appendix)."

Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Wouldn't the elf be able to hide automatically in a Heavily Obscured Area since the person who might perceive them would be given the Blinded Condition?

"A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see the appendix)."

Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

So, you'd rule a creature hiding in darkness is impossible to detect with a Perception roll? What if the perceiving creature is in a light room, therefore not blinded, but the hiding creature is in the totally dark tunnel ahead of it?

What about a creature simply hiding behind a stone wall? They have total cover, therefore are Heavily Obscured.

As I mentioned above, you have to work with idea that a Perception check to become aware of a hidden creature is not restricted to sight, but a combination of sensory cues. Being unseen is a condition of the Hide action; darkness or invisibility don't make it automatic, they just increase your options for locations to hide.

 

[Melkor]

So, you'd rule a creature hiding in darkness is impossible to detect with a Perception roll?

I really don't know what I would rule. I'm here to try and discern how other people are interpreting the rules for hiding/obscurity and the special corner cases introduced by the Lightfoot Halfling and Wood Elf.

If the observer was in a brightly lit 100' x 100' room, and someone was in a 30' x 30' section of the room that was Heavily Obscured, but the observer could still hear the person in the Heavily Obscured area moving about, it presents an interesting scenario. If both were in the Heavily Obscured area, and the hider was not moving and being absolutely quiet, I assume sight would be the only option for discovering him, and the Blinded condition would mean the sight-based Perception check would automatically fail.

I just think the rules could have been written in a way that made them much easier to sort out.

 

[Sir Brennen]

If the observer was in a brightly lit 100' x 100' room, and someone was in a 30' x 30' section of the room that was Heavily Obscured, but the observer could still hear the person in the Heavily Obscured area moving about, it presents an interesting scenario. If both were in the Heavily Obscured area, and the hider was not moving and being absolutely quiet, I assume sight would be the only option for discovering him, and the Blinded condition would mean the sight-based Perception check would automatically fail.

But you answered your question right there. "Being absolutely quiet" is part of what you're trying to attempt with the Hide action, because you need to be unseen AND unheard to be hidden. You roll to see how successful you are at being quiet vs. the perceiver's hearing, or possibly other senses. Remember, to even attempt to Hide, you already have to be in a position where the other creature can't see you. So what are they relying on to notice you? Sure, it might be you hide behind that rock, but they saw your sword point is sticking out. More likely, though, you made a small movement that produced a sound, couldn't get your breathing under control, or passed wind, and so revealed your location.

But how about we get to a corner case and stand on tippy-toe: what if you're in that Heavily Obscured area of the room and a deaf creature enters the room? One with sight but no other remarkable senses, like a dog's sense of smell. Then, yeah, I'd probably rule the Hide is automatic.

 

[fjw70]

Wouldn't the elf be able to hide automatically in a Heavily Obscured area since the person who might perceive them would be given the Blinded condition?

"A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see the appendix)."

Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.

Heavily obscured makes them automatically unseen which is a prereq for hiding, but hiding but hiding is more than being unseen. It also means being unheard.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

So, it is usually harder to hide from someone who does not know that you are there than it is for you to hide from someone who does know that you are there.


To correct this, one could add a -5 to the Passive Perception resulting in 7 Passive Perception vs. a creature in a lightly obscured area and an 8 is needed on the first Stealth check here. But, then you would have to do this any time the hiding creature is in a lightly obscured area because creatures do not hide out in the open. Is the -5 there in a lightly obscured area, but not when one is hiding behind 3/4s cover or some such?

I hope the DMG has better answers on this.

Adding a -5 to Passive Perception with disadvantage is RAW, per the basic rules (p60, v0.2). But disadvantage only applies to Perception checks that rely on sight (p65).

So if the observing creature cannot benefit from sound, either due to being deafened, the hiding creature being silenced, or other circumstances, than it's Passive Perception -5 before the ambush and active Perception -5 after the ambush.

In normal cases, it's unmodified Passive Perception before the ambush and unmodified active Perception afterwards.

 

[Melkor]

Note that Mike Mearls explicitly answered this on twitter: You can hide in the same place. He also said that it's fair for the DM to impose disadvantage on that Stealth check.
Cheers!

Hi Merric,

Do you happen to have a link to Mearl's tweet, or the exact language he used?
I thought I noted it down somewhere, but can't find it now.

Thanks.