I think I'm over crunch

[HellHound]

Give me good adventures, maybe a town sourcebook or even a world setting

Yet... when we release products like these (Powers that Be: City Council - detailing a full city council, with plots, intrigues, power blocks, adventure hooks and seeds, a detailed castle location where the city council meets...) we don't see any real sales movement at all - making it so the work that goes into these sourcebooks isn't worth the effort for the writer, artist and layout person.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Well I'll put in a word of praise for my favoraite non-rule heavy source books, the two that I use most - A magical medieval Society: and Ecology and culture. Real world examples and thoughtful treatment of how magic would impact society. "no new feats, no new classes, no new spells"

I actually use EN world as a source of material as well stealing from both ideas and new rules presented here.

I also have a tendency to brows and pull the 1-2 bits of intresting crunch into the game without bothering with the source.

 

[Destil]

Another convert to the anti-crunch crusade! Can I get an amen?!

Amen, brothers and sisters!

All and All I still like new spells. Feats, prestige classes and magic items I'm fairly sick of, though.

Yet... when we release products like these (Powers that Be: City Council - detailing a full city council, with plots, intrigues, power blocks, adventure hooks and seeds, a detailed castle location where the city council meets...) we don't see any real sales movement at all - making it so the work that goes into these sourcebooks isn't worth the effort for the writer, artist and layout person.

The sad truth it that while it's what I want, it's also not what sells (because of the player / DM split of the marketplace, I'm guessing.

 

[Atom Again]

Too much staring into rose-coloured glasses will make you go crosseyed.

Complete Fighter's Handbook
Complete Wizard's Handbook
Complete Ranger's Handbook
Complete Paladin's Handbook
Complete Thief's Handbook
Complete Priest's Handbook
Complete Bard's Handbook
Complete Book of Elves
Complete Book of Dwarves
Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings
Complete Book of Humanoids
Arms and Equipment Guide
Tome of Magic
Player's Option: Skills and Powers
Player's Option: Combat and Tactics

Oh, your point is well taken. I wasn't suggesting that 2e was all brilliant ideas and no excess crunch. Far from it. Especially those dreadful Player's Option books (shudder).

My point was that today it seems that ALL we have is more and more crunch, and nothing that compares with the rules-light, brilliant ideas of 2e Ravenloft and Planescape.

 

[Atom Again]

I love it!

Let's start an anti-crunch revolution! I can't see why people snap up those books filled with endless PrCs and feats. Are they making that many characters? Do they need to make a new character every three months? How many feats can a guy have?

It seems like there is such a flood of useless junk in those books. The noise-to-signal ratio is most definatly out of whack.

[Stands up and cheers]

 

[Atom Again]

Not to change the subject... But I am, sorry. This post reminded me, my friend recently told me he wanted to run a planeswalker campaign, and he asked me if the Planescape box was worth buying off ebay. I never really read any of it, so I didn't know what to tell him. After reading this, I think I'll tell him yes. Any thoughts?

Holy crap, YES! In my D&D 3.0 games there are only three campaign settings I use: Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and Planescape.

The 2e Planescape boxed set is worth its weight in gold. Hell, *anything* for Planescape (adventures, etc.) is worth its weight in gold.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Holy crap, YES! In my D&D 3.0 games there are only three campaign settings I use: Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and Planescape.

The 2e Planescape boxed set is worth its weight in gold. Hell, *anything* for Planescape (adventures, etc.) is worth its weight in gold.

I always thought it was pretty cool that the Planescape modules came with their own screens. Very handy!

I want gory details that I can exploit on guilds, medieval politics and society, discussions on RL history and those elements that are transferable into the RPG experience...

Exactly. I would like to see, not necessarily comprehensive, but a definite look at what to add to a city as far as guilds, officials, factions, how mercenary companies interact with a setting, how exactly do churches raise money (ergo, armies), and how having multiple religions would cut into that , etc, etc.

I do, however, second getting your fluff from other non-D&D sources. I began reading Richard Cohen's "By the Sword" and in it he mentions that European medieval monks, around the 13th century were noted for their wrestling skills. It's something that you can use as a good springboard to making a martial arts styled monk with a more Western flavor to intergrate the class better into a European-esque campaign. Now to change the weapon proficiencies a bit...

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Hell, *anything* for Planescape (adventures, etc.) is worth its weight in gold.

Hehe, except for the Player's Primer to The Outands.
Other than that, it's pretty much all good. Basically, you either love Planescape or hate it.


Hellhound, for what it's worth, I think that Powers that Be: City Council and the Spiked Chain book both look interesting.
Just have to fit them into my budget. My camera has left me tapped out for a while now.

 

[ForceUser]

I get most of my campaign setting ideas from fantasy novels rather than gaming products. I find that novelists fire my imagination much more than game designers, though there are exceptions. Here are the influences for my current homebrew in theme, setting & style:

George R. R. Martin, Songs of Ice and Fire series
Stephen Brust, Jhereg series
J. K. Rowling, Harry Potter series
Michael Moorcock, Elric series
David Eddings
H. P. Lovecraft
Monte Cook, especially Arcana Unearthed

Keith Baker's Eberron Campaign Setting is also surprisingly ripe with intrigues and backstory, some of which I'm porting over whole cloth. Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe is highly useful in addition to being a fascinating read. Just learning about how medieval society really worked has inspired me with all kinds of story ideas along those lines.

 

[mythusmage]

Yet... when we release products like these (Powers that Be: City Council - detailing a full city council, with plots, intrigues, power blocks, adventure hooks and seeds, a detailed castle location where the city council meets...) we don't see any real sales movement at all - making it so the work that goes into these sourcebooks isn't worth the effort for the writer, artist and layout person.

What you're seeing here is the fundamental disconnect between the general D&D® public, and a sub-culture. Most people see it as a game in the traditional sense. A game where you need things like balance and some sort of victory condition, and where competition with other players (including the GM) is required.

What we're hearing in this thread are those who see D&D as something different from a game. As an exercise in imagination and cooperative story creation. Which last requires a well realized detailed world with more to do than achieve the latest module's victory condition.

Remember, the Nine Walkers (guess the (Tolkein) trilogy they're from and win a fabulous No Prize) were not a balanced party.