I think I'm over crunch

[rushlight]

Yet... when we release products like these (Powers that Be: City Council - detailing a full city council, with plots, intrigues, power blocks, adventure hooks and seeds, a detailed castle location where the city council meets...) we don't see any real sales movement at all - making it so the work that goes into these sourcebooks isn't worth the effort for the writer, artist and layout person.

I looked at that, and it looked to be an excellent product. The problem is that perhaps it was too focused. It has so much detail, that it makes it more difficult to include in an ongoing homebrew. Also, there's so much going on, it seems like it functions more as a module than a backdrop for a city.

Something in the middle would be perfect - general ideas for creating your own City Council (along with ideas for various other forms of government) along with some lightly sketched out ideas about the council. Give us DMs some meat to chew, but don't hand feed the whole meal to us. We like to mix 'n match - perhaps a book with many small segments of ideas (arranged by theme), that could be combined in interesting ways.

For exapmle: You could combine "An evil dragon has stolen something of great value" with "a prince has lost the magic sword given to him by his father" and add "there was a sword that possesed the powers to not only take a life, but to bring that life back".

Those 3 snippets make me ask questions. Why has the dragon done this? Has he lost someone close? Were they killed by this sword, and he hopes to bring them back? Is he trying to prevent the resurection of someone else? This seems like a compasionate dragon (at least in some sense!).

But if you replace the middle snippet with "a king is using a powerful magic item to stop a war" then you've got a totally different set of ideas. Is the dragon behind the war? Who does he want to win? What will he do with the sword?

Imagine a book full of those snippets! You could easily and quickly weave in subplots. You could take your story in a direction totally suprising everyone. Even people who have a hard time coming up with campagin ideas would find it a breeze to weave together a fairly complex plot...

Is there anyone else who would buy such a product?

 

[herald]

I looked at that, and it looked to be an excellent product. The problem is that perhaps it was too focused. It has so much detail, that it makes it more difficult to include in an ongoing homebrew. Also, there's so much going on, it seems like it functions more as a module than a backdrop for a city.

Something in the middle would be perfect - general ideas for creating your own City Council (along with ideas for various other forms of government) along with some lightly sketched out ideas about the council. Give us DMs some meat to chew, but don't hand feed the whole meal to us. We like to mix 'n match - perhaps a book with many small segments of ideas (arranged by theme), that could be combined in interesting ways.

For exapmle: You could combine "An evil dragon has stolen something of great value" with "a prince has lost the magic sword given to him by his father" and add "there was a sword that possesed the powers to not only take a life, but to bring that life back".

Those 3 snippets make me ask questions. Why has the dragon done this? Has he lost someone close? Were they killed by this sword, and he hopes to bring them back? Is he trying to prevent the resurection of someone else? This seems like a compasionate dragon (at least in some sense!).

But if you replace the middle snippet with "a king is using a powerful magic item to stop a war" then you've got a totally different set of ideas. Is the dragon behind the war? Who does he want to win? What will he do with the sword?

Imagine a book full of those snippets! You could easily and quickly weave in subplots. You could take your story in a direction totally suprising everyone. Even people who have a hard time coming up with campagin ideas would find it a breeze to weave together a fairly complex plot...

Is there anyone else who would buy such a product?

I wouldn't. Who needs a product that reads like a list of fortune cookies?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I must admit, I don't get a great deal of use out of the books I buy. I own the Eberron campaign setting, for instance, though I don't plan to run or play in it anytime soon.

However, even when I don't get to use a book very much, I still like reading them. I'm also getting together as many crunchy books as possible so I can inject a high enough dose of weirdness into my campaign by having everything in it, oh yes.

 

[buzz]

I see fluff as something complete different to good old-fashioned advice, something that you see quite a lot of in the DMG (thanks, Monte!) and somewhat in other books.

One of my favorite products of late is Goodman Games' The Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide. It's so nice to see a book that gives extensive attention to *showing you how to use the rules you already have*. There's not a single new rule in the book, just loads of analysis. I love it, and have turned some of the other people in my groups to it.

This kind of product, and stuff like the "Power Plays" sidebars Dragon used to do or Skip's "Rules of the Game" Web column is what I want more of.

Some people may think a lot of this kind of content is a no-brainer, but it was all fresh news to me. Then again, I'm the sort of person who thought the extended combat examples in Sword & Fist were the best part of the book.

 

[Arnwyn]

and I'm sick of endless feats/spells/prestige classes/whatever, then I guess I'm done. Weird.

How about you?

You're a little slow. I've quit buying rules material for almost a year and a half now. Any book whose focus is feats, PrCs, spells, or magic items gets an immediate "no buy" reaction from me.

Nowadays, I only buy FR geographical expansions, city/town and other location accessories, and adventures (mostly Necro Games and Dungeon).

Yet... when we release products like these (Powers that Be: City Council - detailing a full city council, with plots, intrigues, power blocks, adventure hooks and seeds, a detailed castle location where the city council meets...) we don't see any real sales movement at all - making it so the work that goes into these sourcebooks isn't worth the effort for the writer, artist and layout person.

Never heard of it, and certainly have never seen it in a store. Seems to me like you have some marketing problems. Also sounds pretty pdf-y... which is a whole 'nother issue.

Hmm - I see the definition of "fluff" is become rather broad.

Always has been. I think you're the one who's tried to make it narrower.

 

[RFisher]

So if I don't need fluff and I'm sick of endless feats/spells/prestige classes/whatever, then I guess I'm done. Weird.

Yeah. I've found myself in this strange position in which I no longer want crunchy books, and I still don't want creamy books, yet I still have a compulsion to buy roleplaying books. I go into my FLGS, stare at the shelves for a while, & then walk out frustrated.

I've been trying to cope by collecting some of the OOP stuff I didn't buy the first time around. Still may not use much of it, but at least its collectible & less expensive.

 

[woodelf]

Too much staring into rose-coloured glasses will make you go crosseyed.

Complete Fighter's Handbook
Complete Wizard's Handbook
Complete Ranger's Handbook
Complete Paladin's Handbook
Complete Thief's Handbook
Complete Priest's Handbook
Complete Bard's Handbook
Complete Book of Elves
Complete Book of Dwarves
Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings
Complete Book of Humanoids
Arms and Equipment Guide
Tome of Magic
Player's Option: Skills and Powers
Player's Option: Combat and Tactics

None of which had anything to do with Ravenloft or Planescape, so how is that a counter to his point? He didn't say there wasn't crunch in AD&D2 books, he said there was fluff--one is not the converse of the other. And, even then, the parts i got the most use out of in the Complete... series, with the exception of weapon groups and fighting styles, was the fluff. Sure, the spells were cool, but i'd probably only actually use one or seven from any given book. And kits are a whole lot of fluff wrapped up with a package of crunch, just the inverse of PrCs, which are generally a whole lot of crunch with an ittybitty fluffy center--or no fluff at all, on occasion. Even Tome of Magic, on the surface a book full of crunch, was far less crunchy than D&D3E equivalents. Much more of the wordcount was devoted to the non-mechanical parts of spell descriptions in AD&D2, and it explored interesting concepts with some of the priest spheres, rather than just presenting a new, one-sentence domain power.

 

[HellHound]

Never heard of it, and certainly have never seen it in a store. Seems to me like you have some marketing problems. Also sounds pretty pdf-y... which is a whole 'nother issue.

Hmmm... considering that I'm the co-owner of E.N.Publishing, it's pretty much guaranteed that what I promote is an E-product. Currently our only print project is the E.N.World Gamer magazine.

 

[woodelf]

Depends on your crunch. I was never into feats and PrCs.

New rules for different types of magic (feats and skills, spell points, psionics, super powers, etc.) I have a weakness for. Mostly because I look at the d20 craze bassackwards compared to most gamers.

Them: Ohhhh, how much of this is "compatable" with the rules I love.
Me: ohhh, how much of this is different from the rules I "hate."

spell slots ... meh.

I'm with you. I've never seen the appeal of "compatible", because that sounds too much like "the same" to me. If it's close enough to just drop in without tweaking, it's probably close enough that i could come up with it with the tools i already have. But then, i'm also the person who's been saying for years that all RPG books are inter-compatible--i find i exert no more effort to drop some cool tech from a ShadowRun book into my WoD game, than to drop a Forgotten Realms spell into my Eberron campaign. The mechanics just aren't that dissimilar.

So, yeah, i want "different" and "new" and don't give a rat's behind about "compatible" or "balanced" (an illusion anyway). 'Course, in my case, that most often leads to non-D20 System stuff, rather than unusual D20 System stuff, just because i've found that the latter is generally less different than the former (due, very specifically, to a certain amount of minimal compatibility holding it back).

 

[woodelf]

I love it!

Let's start an anti-crunch revolution! I can't see why people snap up those books filled with endless PrCs and feats. Are they making that many characters? Do they need to make a new character every three months? How many feats can a guy have?

It seems like there is such a flood of useless junk in those books. The noise-to-signal ratio is most definatly out of whack.

Only one major question i have for people in your situation: why are you buying D&D books, then? I long ago figured out that the target market for D20 System books, in general, and especially D&D3[.5]E books, was the high-crunch market. So i just don't buy them. If i want a book on how to structure an adventure, i don't lament that there isn't a D20 System book for this, i go grab any of the half-dozen RPG books that are out there on the topic. After all, even if you don't agree with me on the easy cross-portability of crunch between systems, surely you see that the advice on horror scenarios in Nightmares of Mine is just as useful to you as that in Ravenloft, even if you're running your game with D20 System? The market has long since born out that we are in the minority, and perhaps even moreso among D&D players. Don't demand that D&D change to cater to you when it's currently satisfying the majority of its customers--just find RPG products that already cater to your interests.