the Jester
Legend
Not quite, actually. There were several items from the Dragon module Chagmat that weren't included, for instance (oil of transparency is the only one I can recall off the top of my head).
I think TSR was right to publish so much material
- Thread starter Silverblade The Ench
- Start date
Not quite, actually. There were several items from the Dragon module Chagmat that weren't included, for instance (oil of transparency is the only one I can recall off the top of my head).
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
It even went as far as converting every BECMI magic item into AD&D.
Odhanan
Adventurer
Really?! Because I'm certainly not one of them! 2nd Ed AD&D is certainly NOT my idea of a "Golden Era" for D&D. I would reach much farther back in time for that. From OD&D to Pre-UA First Ed AD&D, roughly.
Wik
First Post
You know, thinking about this more, I realize we're forgetting a few pieces of the puzzle.
1.) TSR has had huge success, and now has a buttload of money.
2.) TSR sees itself as the top dogs of the company, and therefore should be leading the way. As "top dogs", there is no way they can fail, right?
3.) They go to cons and talk to a couple of guys who likes Rome-centred games. They fail to realize that these guys are a fringe "hardcore" gamer group, and that the population of GenCon and the gamer friends of the designers do not make up the mainstream gamer population.
4.) Our designers can think of ten or twelve people they know who would LOVE a Roman-centred game, and so write the book, figuring that if they personally know twelve people who want it, obviously every second person on the planet actually wants the book.
5.) There is no widespread internet at the time (this is big). This means that TSR sees as part of its job to cover the whole of gaming, and that it needs to cover every niche demographic.
6.) Of course, because TSR takes on this mantle, they go after anyone who tries to use D&D rules to cover a niche TSR hasn't gotten to yet ("We already have a psychic bugs versus vampire gnomes space game in the works! WE'RE GONNA SUE!")
1.) TSR has had huge success, and now has a buttload of money.
2.) TSR sees itself as the top dogs of the company, and therefore should be leading the way. As "top dogs", there is no way they can fail, right?
3.) They go to cons and talk to a couple of guys who likes Rome-centred games. They fail to realize that these guys are a fringe "hardcore" gamer group, and that the population of GenCon and the gamer friends of the designers do not make up the mainstream gamer population.
4.) Our designers can think of ten or twelve people they know who would LOVE a Roman-centred game, and so write the book, figuring that if they personally know twelve people who want it, obviously every second person on the planet actually wants the book.
5.) There is no widespread internet at the time (this is big). This means that TSR sees as part of its job to cover the whole of gaming, and that it needs to cover every niche demographic.
6.) Of course, because TSR takes on this mantle, they go after anyone who tries to use D&D rules to cover a niche TSR hasn't gotten to yet ("We already have a psychic bugs versus vampire gnomes space game in the works! WE'RE GONNA SUE!")
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Encyclopedia Magica is a fantastic product. It remains very browsable, even by non-gamers. It's still fun to drag out a volume of it and just read.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Indeed, I loved having such an all-inclusive product, and especially liked how it covered things like the costs of different systems in different game worlds (e.g. Athas's ceramic bits, or Krynn's steel coins). It even sneaked a few brand new items in there (mostly stuff by Prismal, and that gigantic roving steamroller artifact).
I also liked that the Wizard's and Priest's Spell Compendiums kept the world references for spells, and noted the rarity of spells - that was great for helping to decide how often the PCs should come across the new spells in those books.
The only reason why Encyclopedia Magica failed IMO was because of the quality of the actual product itself was too high given the low price point of said product.
Like I said, notice the difference in the actual physical quality of EM compared to Spell Compendium. Spell Compendium itself in terms of content was just as good as EM IMO but really comparing the two, it really is lightyears in difference.
Now, the Magical Encyclopedia...THERE'S a product I spit on.
Like I said, notice the difference in the actual physical quality of EM compared to Spell Compendium. Spell Compendium itself in terms of content was just as good as EM IMO but really comparing the two, it really is lightyears in difference.
Now, the Magical Encyclopedia...THERE'S a product I spit on.
Lord Captian Tobacco
First Post
Sorry I’m late guys. Please, don’t get up. It’s ok…
Ahem.
Like Klaus stated much earlier, there was too much focus on realm specific products.
Soat pegged it exactly; once your group had chosen what the setting was you didn’t often get outside of it.
Dark Sun, Planescape, Red Steel, Maztica, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim. Never seen any of these played outside of conventions.
Spelljammer, Birthright, Ravenloft. RL: Mask of the Red Death. Limited in use. People loved it or hated it. I really liked the MotRD; most did not.
Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk. Holdovers from the ‘old school’ most of us were hoping for a more dynamic timeline to show change over time but then gnashed our teeth when the latest product jacked with our campaign.
Love’em. Hat’em. Doesn’t matter that way. The real problem was not tailoring the product for the public but closer matching of the production runs to the demand. I can’t begin to count the number of times I found a copy (in wrap) of the reprint Palace of the Silver Princess or Quagmire or Curse of Xanathon (or however it is spelled) in the Bargain Bin of KB toys years after TSR closed up on those products.
That was even before KB and the Game Keeper closed for much the same reason. Too much diversification for too few interest groups. Nod to Jester for stating the obvious but here’s another look at the same issue:
The problem really looked like a bad pizza party. Imagine inviting 40 people over for a house party. You provide/pay for/order: 5 cheese, 5 pepperoni, 5 meat lovers, 5 ‘Hawaiian’, 5 anchovy, 5 ‘veggie’ (mushroom, olives, bell peppers (red and green), 5 chicken and garlic, and 5 ‘barbeque’. Throw in 20 packets of red peppers, 30 extra cheese ‘stuff’ topping, and 10 mini-cups of dipping sauce. In theory, each person can grab a full pizza and the condiments of their choice during the course of the party. In practice, you can guess the results. Some pizzas get inhaled. Some last an hour or two. A few of these you’ll have for breakfast because you paid for it. A closer attention to what the majority would consume and maybe only one or two of the more specialized tastes would have been the better choice.
Should there have been the same size production run for Birthright as the Greyhawk or the DragonLance HB book? Maybe. But not all products were written in equal quality, but they (at least the main boxes) were mass produced in numbers which were probably far in excess of the demand. Some books proved to be impossible to find only a year after release (2ed Kara-Tur.) But the question of which products were purchased was based on need, interest, cash flow. Most people were very critical (as they should be) of what it is and how useful a product is before they buy it.
Regrettably, the same was for so many supplements and adventures. Looking at my shelf from here I can see a great number of products that have never been played as is; but most of them had an idea or two lifted from them. So I guess that in the end the real question is this: is the cost of that supplement worth the few ideas adopted/incorporated into your game?
And this is what toppled a production company which based its income on controlling the creative imaginations of people who were, on the whole, were smarter than those running the company.
Ahem.
Like Klaus stated much earlier, there was too much focus on realm specific products.
Soat pegged it exactly; once your group had chosen what the setting was you didn’t often get outside of it.
Dark Sun, Planescape, Red Steel, Maztica, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim. Never seen any of these played outside of conventions.
Spelljammer, Birthright, Ravenloft. RL: Mask of the Red Death. Limited in use. People loved it or hated it. I really liked the MotRD; most did not.
Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk. Holdovers from the ‘old school’ most of us were hoping for a more dynamic timeline to show change over time but then gnashed our teeth when the latest product jacked with our campaign.
Love’em. Hat’em. Doesn’t matter that way. The real problem was not tailoring the product for the public but closer matching of the production runs to the demand. I can’t begin to count the number of times I found a copy (in wrap) of the reprint Palace of the Silver Princess or Quagmire or Curse of Xanathon (or however it is spelled) in the Bargain Bin of KB toys years after TSR closed up on those products.
That was even before KB and the Game Keeper closed for much the same reason. Too much diversification for too few interest groups. Nod to Jester for stating the obvious but here’s another look at the same issue:
The problem really looked like a bad pizza party. Imagine inviting 40 people over for a house party. You provide/pay for/order: 5 cheese, 5 pepperoni, 5 meat lovers, 5 ‘Hawaiian’, 5 anchovy, 5 ‘veggie’ (mushroom, olives, bell peppers (red and green), 5 chicken and garlic, and 5 ‘barbeque’. Throw in 20 packets of red peppers, 30 extra cheese ‘stuff’ topping, and 10 mini-cups of dipping sauce. In theory, each person can grab a full pizza and the condiments of their choice during the course of the party. In practice, you can guess the results. Some pizzas get inhaled. Some last an hour or two. A few of these you’ll have for breakfast because you paid for it. A closer attention to what the majority would consume and maybe only one or two of the more specialized tastes would have been the better choice.
Should there have been the same size production run for Birthright as the Greyhawk or the DragonLance HB book? Maybe. But not all products were written in equal quality, but they (at least the main boxes) were mass produced in numbers which were probably far in excess of the demand. Some books proved to be impossible to find only a year after release (2ed Kara-Tur.) But the question of which products were purchased was based on need, interest, cash flow. Most people were very critical (as they should be) of what it is and how useful a product is before they buy it.
Regrettably, the same was for so many supplements and adventures. Looking at my shelf from here I can see a great number of products that have never been played as is; but most of them had an idea or two lifted from them. So I guess that in the end the real question is this: is the cost of that supplement worth the few ideas adopted/incorporated into your game?
And this is what toppled a production company which based its income on controlling the creative imaginations of people who were, on the whole, were smarter than those running the company.
Obryn
Hero
That's all I did in 3.5, too. I bought the Eberron and Forgotten Realms campaign guides, and zero extra material. The only one I bought more of was Arcana Evolved - and that I regretted, because the added material actually made the game worse, not better.*
I buy settings so I can get some ideas and run games in them. Buying additional setting material is generally antithetical to how I run my games; added detail doesn't help me - it bogs me down and actively hurts my preparation. I want just enough to riff off of; enough that I can get an idea of what makes the setting tick. I want overarching themes, awesome features, important NPCs, and hooks. For me, anything past that is basically just fanfiction. So, I love the original boxes of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. (Though Greyhawk could have spent more time on the locations and a lot less on giving us the gods' stats.) I really like the 4e Eberron book. And the Dark Sun 4e book is damn near perfect for the kind of thing I want to dig into.
-O
* Spell Treasury was powercreeptastic, given how spellcasters worked. Transcendence had some parts I used - the evolved attribute classes - but the "replacement levels" were bookkeeping nightmares and were promptly banned. Mystic Secrets was unhelpful at best and more crap to keep track of at worst. And my game was already too-high-level for the published ruins.
Hussar
Legend
Obryn - I can totally get behind that.
About the only setting that I did invest heavily in was Scarred Lands. And, quite frankly, 99% of the material I'll never use. I'm really tired of buying books just so they can sit on my shelf and gather dust.
So, for me, a fire and forget setting is perfect. The core books for the setting, presumably, are going to see lots of use. Anything beyond that is just extra bells and whistles. Most of the time it doesn't even save you any work, just makes more work to try to incorporate later books into the setting.
If I'm going to have to do the lions share of the work developing a campaign in a given setting anyway, why do I really need fifteen books, twelve of which likely don't even deal with what my campaign is about right now anyway.
To me, it's not, "why get into an unsupported setting" it's, "Why bother with a bunch of books I'm never likely to use anyway.
Most of the "support" for settings is just reading material anyway. I don't buy gaming books for reading material. I buy novels for that. If a gaming book isn't usable at the table right now, I'm not going to buy it anymore.
About the only setting that I did invest heavily in was Scarred Lands. And, quite frankly, 99% of the material I'll never use. I'm really tired of buying books just so they can sit on my shelf and gather dust.
So, for me, a fire and forget setting is perfect. The core books for the setting, presumably, are going to see lots of use. Anything beyond that is just extra bells and whistles. Most of the time it doesn't even save you any work, just makes more work to try to incorporate later books into the setting.
If I'm going to have to do the lions share of the work developing a campaign in a given setting anyway, why do I really need fifteen books, twelve of which likely don't even deal with what my campaign is about right now anyway.
To me, it's not, "why get into an unsupported setting" it's, "Why bother with a bunch of books I'm never likely to use anyway.
Most of the "support" for settings is just reading material anyway. I don't buy gaming books for reading material. I buy novels for that. If a gaming book isn't usable at the table right now, I'm not going to buy it anymore.
