I think we're done with 4E

[Felon]

No, just +26 damage without weapon damage.

Well the math is easy. Lets use a dragonborn glaive fighter.

+6 strength bonus on level 11
+3 magic weapon
+2 weapon focus
+6 power attack
+9 blood-claw weapon.

Sounds like this "blood-claw weapon" is providing a big boost. What the heck is it and why shouldn't it be nerfed?

 

[Felon]

Making monsters take a -2 to defenses when they hit blooded might be a really good idea, particularly if the players are finding it hard to finish a combat.

I think I'd prefer to see encounter powers receive a small bonus to hit, and dailies receive a big one. I'd be happy for these bonuses to be provided by feats, although they'd be must-haves. Another possibility is a feat that lets you add the "reliable" quality to a power.

IME the number one cause of grind is having a series of big-gun fizzles.

 

[Shadowsong666]

Sounds like this "blood-claw weapon" is providing a big boost. What the heck is it and why shouldn't it be nerfed?

you take 1 damage per weapon plus that can't be avoided and do double the damage extra - three times for a two-handed weapon.
its ok imho.

 

[Felon]

you take 1 damage per weapon plus that can't be avoided and do double the damage extra - three times for a two-handed weapon.
its ok imho.

So, it allows hit points to be converted into damage, basically turning a defender into a striker. The guy with the surfeit of HP takes a 3 point boo-boo, and gets a damage bonus comparable if not better than a striker's daamge rider? If that's at-will, and that's all there is to it, it sounds pretty power-creepy and role-disruptive to me.

But to each their own. Not what the thread's about I guess.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

As a player I am fed up with 4e already, but I like to run it so far.

Careful with that narrow brush.

 

[Jhaelen]

In 3e, combats (particularly after 11th level) feel like they're decided by the third round.

But isn't that because in 3E a typical combat is _over_ by the third round? Because that's been my experience. Combats taking more than three rounds are rare and almost always represent 'boss fights'.

So that's pretty much the opposite of what people generally call 'grinding'.
Grinding is chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, over.
In 3E it's *boom*, *boom*, *boom*, over.

There's no question that, in terms of rounds, 4e combat takes longer. But in terms of actual real time, 3e combats come off as being much quicker, at least for my group.

That's probably true but I don't think this has been the major complaint in this thread. This thread is about the 'quality' of a combat, i.e. how fun/interesting is it?

If of 10 rounds of combat only the first three are interesting and the rest is boring mopping up, then there's a problem even if the 10 rounds taken together only take half as long as three rounds in 3E.

 

[Harlekin]

So, it allows hit points to be converted into damage, basically turning a defender into a striker. The guy with the surfeit of HP takes a 3 point boo-boo, and gets a damage bonus comparable if not better than a striker's daamge rider? If that's at-will, and that's all there is to it, it sounds pretty power-creepy and role-disruptive to me.

But to each their own. Not what the thread's about I guess.

I had basically the same evaluation when I read up about it. In 3e a vicious weapon turns hp to damage in a 1 to 2 ratio and that is already pretty nice. I think the 1 to 3 ratio for two-handed weapons is just a little too much.

However, even without the +9, his expected damage for an attack is 24, so for the purpose of our argument it does not matter if this weapon is overpowered.

I am starting to think that strikers may be the least important role for a groups survival while being the most important role for a groups fun. a party without strikes will have more defenders and leaders and thus be able to take much more damage. However, their fights will be long and sometimes grindy. Something to look out for when putting together a group.

 

[Festivus]

I am just curious how many out there have run high level 3.5 and 4E games, and how do things compare at those levels?

I have this feeling that 4E low level takes a lot longer / "grindy" because of a) lack of options at low level, and b) the way everyone has a lot of hitpoints. But 4E remains fairly flat in terms of time for combat resolution across the levels, where 3.5 is very quick combats in levels 1-12ish, but starts jumping up in terms of time to resolve at higher levels (does it plateau at some point in 3.5?) My home 3.5 game we are at level 18 and things take a bit of time to resolve.

I weigh this 4E low level action against how it might work high level (for the record, I have only run high level 3.5, not 4E yet... so this is speculation). At high level 4E, I can see that the creatures have a few more hitpoints, a few more options, and the players have a few more hitpoints and options. Does this increase the amount of time combats take? I suspect less options makes for faster decisions when it comes time to use them.

I know in 3.5, most of the time is spent adding up massive numbers of dice... one roll can consist of 30d6 a couple d8s and whatever else... in 4E it's going to be 3[W]+modifiers. That has to help speed things up. Also in high level 3.5 games, the stat blocks for the bad guys can span several sheets of paper, particularly with things like dragons (as I prepare to run a massive fight with multiple dragons and giants). It takes a lot of prep time to figure out tactics and options, and the stat blocks are so large I often find myself forgetting about some power or ability in the heat of the game. Thus far in 4E I haven't had that problem.

 

[der_kluge]

There was action, intrigue, ships, cannons, undead, lizardfolk, giant dinosaurs. Everything a body could want!

No hot girl on girl action?

 

[Drkfathr1]

Is the grind aspect due to hp's being too high, or maybe the power system being too limited?

I really wish there were more uses for encounter and daily powers, or some mechanic that migrated encounter powers to at-wills at certain levels. Or maybe some kind of re-charge mechanic for PC's.

I have to mirror the disappointment of some that I feel like I have to house-rule large chunks of 4E already.