D&D 5E I thought WotC was removing biological morals?

[Hussar]

Ah, so if we’re in agreement then why are we arguing? My whole shtick has been disagreeing with the people saying redcaps are different enough to escape criticism. I understood you to be one of those people.

Let me ask this because I honestly don't know.

Have redcaps been used in the past or in the present to describe, denigrate or otherwise devalue real world people? Do the descriptions of redcaps, in any way, mirror the descriptions of real world people?

If the answer is no, then, yup, they escape criticism. Because THAT'S the issue.

 

[Hussar]

They wouldn't stop because Orcs, Drow and Vistani are not the only things people care about; they're just the most obvious. A critical eye has been turned to D&D in recent years, and IMO (no, I'm not "sure") that eye is not going to turn away when and if these more clear issues are addressed. Its going to keep looking, and people are going to keep demanding change.

So, 100% slippery slope. Ok, at least that's clear.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, 100% slippery slope. Ok, at least that's clear.

Doesn't make me wrong.

 

[Hussar]

And I’m rather tired of an issue that I and many others earnestly take with the depiction of race in D&D dismissed as “hijacking the issue” and something “no one has a problem with.”

I'm rather careful to never try to include other people in my POV.

And, yes, you are hijacking the issue. The issue is about real world depictions that harm real world people. Expanding that is pointless. Like I said, all you're doing is making it harder to make real changes that apply to real people. Because, just like this thread, every time the conversation comes up, it gets drifted off into oblivious with hypotheticals. "Oh, well, if you don't have a problem with redcaps, what about eladrin or satyr's". As if any of them were actually a real problem.

 

[Charlaquin]

Ah, so if we’re in agreement then why are we arguing? My whole shtick has been disagreeing with the people saying redcaps are different enough to escape criticism. I understood you to be one of those people.

I think redcaps are different enough not to be a problem in the same way orcs and drow and such are. But I don’t think that means they’re above criticism. If you (general you) have critiques of them, they should be raised and we can hash out if those critiques are valid and worth addressing. Personally, I think them bring otherworldly spirits that don’t have life cycles or societies like people makes them different enough that the biological essentialism critique doesn’t hold water with them. But I recognize it’s a complex issue, and others will have different opinions. That’s why this kind of evaluation is an ongoing process, not something you can just do once and be done with.

 

[Charlaquin]

They wouldn't stop because Orcs, Drow and Vistani are not the only things people care about; they're just the most obvious. A critical eye has been turned to D&D in recent years, and IMO (no, I'm not "sure") that eye is not going to turn away when and if these more clear issues are addressed. Its going to keep looking, and people are going to keep demanding change.

I actually don’t disagree with this. I just… think that’s good.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm rather careful to never try to include other people in my POV.

Well, it did come across to me in your first post in the thread that you were claiming no one earnestly held the position I hold. Sorry for my part in misunderstanding you if that wasn’t your intent.

And, yes, you are hijacking the issue. The issue is about real world depictions that harm real world people. Expanding that is pointless.

I’m not expanding the issue. Harm to real world people doesn’t begin and end with overt depictions of bigoted ideas. It’s a deeper structural issue that is just as much in need of addressing.

Like I said, all you're doing is making it harder to make real changes that apply to real people. Because, just like this thread, every time the conversation comes up, it gets drifted off into oblivious with hypotheticals. "Oh, well, if you don't have a problem with redcaps, what about eladrin or satyr's". As if any of them were actually a real problem.

I don’t believe that this conversation would be any less mired in whataboitism and other such nonsense if no one raised critiques of the fundamental issue of biological essentialism. Reactionary voices would try to derail and discredit the push for improving the way the game deals with race no matter what.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

But, this is the entire point of the changes. It's because these images and concepts were used (even if they weren't originally intended that way) to promote bigotry of real world people. I mean, why have hobgoblins been tied to Japanese culture? Japanese folktales don't have hobgoblins like that. So, where did the link come from? Well, look at that image that was posted and then compare it to:

That image is not particularly Japanese. The weapons in hand (axe and mace/morning star) are western and the sword is a scimitar. With the exception of the helmet, the armor and weapons actually look more Arabic/Islamic than Japanese and the helmet could be Chinese or Mongol as well.

I really see little similarities to the racist propaganda posters - no glasses, no exaggerated teeth and no slogans. Art is subject to interpretation but I think that is a stretch.

Based on that line drawing, there certainly is a whole bunch of miniatures and terrain over the years that show them in Japanese looking armor, but they also are generally described as an organized military race/society and it is not a stretch to draw from Japanese culture from the right time. They are also compared to a Romans and the Roman Army.

That actually fleshes them out and makes them less evil savages and more organized evil.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Then you haven’t been paying much attention to this thread:

None of those posts articulates a clear reason why the fey/humanoid distinction is the crux to them. They are flat statements of personal opinion without explanation.

In contrast, those who object on the grounds of links to RW bigotry have been crystal clear.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don’t believe that this conversation would be any less mired in whataboitism and other such nonsense if no one raised critiques of the fundamental issue of biological essentialism.

That image is not particularly Japanese. The weapons in hand (axe and mace/morning star) are western and the sword is a scimitar. With the exception of the helmet, the armor and weapons actually look more Arabic/Islamic than Japanese and the helmet could be Chinese or Mongol as well.

I really see little similarities to the racist propaganda posters - no glasses, no exaggerated teeth and no slogans. Art is subject to interpretation but I think that is a stretch.

Based on that line drawing, there certainly is a whole bunch of miniatures and terrain over the years that show them in Japanese looking armor, but they also are generally described as an organized military race/society and it is not a stretch to draw from Japanese culture from the right time. They are also compared to a Romans and the Roman Army.

That actually fleshes them out and makes them less evil savages and more organized evil.

Case in point.