I tried the 4 player standard, what a mess...
- Thread starter twofalls
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First Post
I didn't read all of the posts so someone may have beaten me to making these points, but...
First, the original poster decided to put to the test what has already been established for years as a broken system. That’s why there was a revision. Obviously an ogre was tougher than a CR 2 just by the demonstration the OP has given us. Now it’s a CR 3.
However, even as a CR 2 (one higher than that average party level), one character is probably going to die. With a CR 3, probably half the party. And I’m talking about a competent group using good tactics.
Second, the DM seems to have blindly trusted in some numbers to make everything work. The DM needs to have the pulse of his players and know when to pull punches or to swing harder. The rules are only a guide with the DM customizing things to his group.
Third, the DM describes a group of characters that would have probably been beaten down by a pair of orcs. The class selection was weak and the tactics were poor. Just because the adventure as written had an ogre in a cave as the big bad guy, if you see that your players are probably going to be owned, change the ogre to something more manageable. The way I see it, it was most likely the damage output and the reach that did them in. So change what you can see on paper will kill each of the PCs in one hit to something more manageable. Make the ogre very old and not quite as strong as he used to be. Sure he’s still got a lot of hit points, but he’s gotten kind of weak in his old age and can’t deal nearly what he used to. Maybe he’s been relying on his reputation in his golden years to dissuade challengers
Or maybe just ditch the ogre, instead it’s a very big and very tough orc fighter. No reach = good for your players. Far less damage output = excellent for your players.
Fourth, yes some of the CRs in D&D are a bit off. But you as the DM should be able to get the feel of a broken CR and adjust on the fly. That’s what the game comes down to in its basic form.
In my opinion, the system didn’t fail this group. The group failed to properly use the system.
Just my take on it.
First, the original poster decided to put to the test what has already been established for years as a broken system. That’s why there was a revision. Obviously an ogre was tougher than a CR 2 just by the demonstration the OP has given us. Now it’s a CR 3.
However, even as a CR 2 (one higher than that average party level), one character is probably going to die. With a CR 3, probably half the party. And I’m talking about a competent group using good tactics.
Second, the DM seems to have blindly trusted in some numbers to make everything work. The DM needs to have the pulse of his players and know when to pull punches or to swing harder. The rules are only a guide with the DM customizing things to his group.
Third, the DM describes a group of characters that would have probably been beaten down by a pair of orcs. The class selection was weak and the tactics were poor. Just because the adventure as written had an ogre in a cave as the big bad guy, if you see that your players are probably going to be owned, change the ogre to something more manageable. The way I see it, it was most likely the damage output and the reach that did them in. So change what you can see on paper will kill each of the PCs in one hit to something more manageable. Make the ogre very old and not quite as strong as he used to be. Sure he’s still got a lot of hit points, but he’s gotten kind of weak in his old age and can’t deal nearly what he used to. Maybe he’s been relying on his reputation in his golden years to dissuade challengers
Or maybe just ditch the ogre, instead it’s a very big and very tough orc fighter. No reach = good for your players. Far less damage output = excellent for your players.
Fourth, yes some of the CRs in D&D are a bit off. But you as the DM should be able to get the feel of a broken CR and adjust on the fly. That’s what the game comes down to in its basic form.
In my opinion, the system didn’t fail this group. The group failed to properly use the system.
Just my take on it.
Raven Crowking
First Post
MerricB said:While you're doing that, have a look at the rules for modifying XP depending on the ratio of monster strength to PC strength.
Honestly, I never bothered with that back in my 1e days. Don't forget, all the DMG rules were "optional" back then. I didn't give XP for gold, either.
Raven Crowking
First Post
mearls said:
IOW, there's a smart way to deal with the encounter, and a dumb way to deal with the encounter. Play it smart, and it's (relatively) easy. Play it dumb, and you adorn the walls in red smears.
Raven Crowking
First Post
MerricB said:Oops.
If you can, grab hold of a 3.5e MM and have a look at the appendices; they're a lot more detailed on how to determine CR.
How does that book compare to Monster Builder re: determining CR?
Raven Crowking
First Post
MerricB said:Did your PCs ever advance?
Oh, yes. They managed to kill just about anything that moved. Also, I gave story awards.
RC
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
You know, while I appreciate the CR system on a lot of levels, on one basic level I don't like it. Why should the universe always issue challenges that just happen to be exactly the level that the PCs are?
In traditional D&D, some times you got in over your head, and sometimes things were really easy. The CR system makes it feel more like a "video game" to me.
I remember the Against the Giants (module code G1-2-3) series. The "CR" of the main room in that keep was WAY beyond the party level. But you knew they were there, and had time to plan, and it forced creativity in approach (like climbing on the roof and carving a hole in the ceiling and blasting them with fireballs from above, or burning the building down, or luring some out with an illusion, etc...).
So a CR3 Ogre vs. a level 1 party SHOULD be challenging, but it should also be an encounter the party can handle if they think it through and play smart and are forced to be creative.
I don't think it's a good idea to fall back on the "it's too hard" whine. It's supposed to be hard. That is part of the game. Part of the fun!
In traditional D&D, some times you got in over your head, and sometimes things were really easy. The CR system makes it feel more like a "video game" to me.
I remember the Against the Giants (module code G1-2-3) series. The "CR" of the main room in that keep was WAY beyond the party level. But you knew they were there, and had time to plan, and it forced creativity in approach (like climbing on the roof and carving a hole in the ceiling and blasting them with fireballs from above, or burning the building down, or luring some out with an illusion, etc...).
So a CR3 Ogre vs. a level 1 party SHOULD be challenging, but it should also be an encounter the party can handle if they think it through and play smart and are forced to be creative.
I don't think it's a good idea to fall back on the "it's too hard" whine. It's supposed to be hard. That is part of the game. Part of the fun!
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