I want my Prestige classes

[Quinn]

whoa.


Didn't expect people to be the DM's side.

Why print so many Prestige classes every where then if they are not ment to be seen often? Why make them attainable at low levels of 4-6? Why not epic level instead?

Dosen't add up to me.

Just because it's printed somewhere in Dragon magazine or a splatbook doesn't mean the DM is obliged to use it nor does it mean you are entitled to have it. If he's decided, no PrCs...then fine, no PrCs. Given all the various combos of classes and feats in the PhB, I have a hard time believing that you NEED a PrC to be creative.

 

[WizarDru]

**Note** - My statements here are with regards to fighter type classes. Caster Prestige classes are outside my area of experience and generally seem to be more likely to be abusable to me.

You're darn tootin. The only caster-based class I haven't scaled back is still one that I consider scaling back quite often. Scorch knows full well how I feel about the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class, which I find to be indicative of more caster PrCs than not. Proper enforcment of the class brought it back into the realm of acceptability...but we had long debates over it.

I still think you worry too much about Prestige class combo's. Can the abilities create a synergistic effect feeding off each other. Sure, but don't forget by the time you have substantial levels in two prestige classes you are hitting the top end of the class range and EVERYONE is obscenely powerful.

Take your proposed OoBI-DWS. I don't think that upping the crit multiplier from x3 to x4 is "too powerful for the level" for say a 17th level char. It's certainly no worse than going from DB Fireball to Meteor Swarm. If you can't cope with the synergistic effect of multiple prestige classes at 16-20th level, then you probably can't cope with characters of those levels period.

Well, we approach them from two different perspectives. You see it from the view of the player who wants to be self-sufficient, while I view it from the perspective of a DM who wants to foster a group ethic. Taken alone, sans magical equipment and buffing spells, they would appear to be relatively low power. But actual application of various PrCs has shown me that a little goes a long way. If anything, next time out I will scale back the PrCs abilities signficantly, now that I've seen their practical applications. When a 15th level character can hit an AC46 most of the time, and do a x4 critical on a roll of 13 or better with a +5 arrow, doing sneak attack damage of +4d6 per shot plus 3d10 of elemental damage with a possibility of ability damage...I consider that pretty darn strong. When he does it five times a round, every round, I consider it a problem. As for comparions to Meteor Swarm...well, last time I checked, arrows didn't hurt other party members and destroy the BBEG's loot.

I lean much more towards offering new feats (particularly new chains) that benefit everyone than more PrCs. I also tend to disagree that most classes get boring after 6th level, but that's only my opinion.

 

[Rackhir]

Well, we approach them from two different perspectives. You see it from the view of the player who wants to be self-sufficient, while I view it from the perspective of a DM who wants to foster a group ethic. Taken alone, sans magical equipment and buffing spells, they would appear to be relatively low power. But actual application of various PrCs has shown me that a little goes a long way. If anything, next time out I will scale back the PrCs abilities signficantly, now that I've seen their practical applications. When a 15th level character can hit an AC46 most of the time, and do a x4 critical on a roll of 13 or better with a +5 arrow, doing sneak attack damage of +4d6 per shot plus 3d10 of elemental damage with a possibility of ability damage...I consider that pretty darn strong. When he does it five times a round, every round, I consider it a problem. As for comparions to Meteor Swarm...well, last time I checked, arrows didn't hurt other party members and destroy the BBEG's loot.

Um, my experiences were as part of a group, both in your campaign and with the new campaign. A single fighter type is never going to be "self-sufficient", no matter what prestige classes they've taken. Are you arguing from the point of view of the synergistic effects of the archer WITH the party, rather than the archer's abilities considered as a solitary character? If so you would be penalizing the party/character for working well together.

I'm assuming that your example is an exaggeration or composite of the worst case scenario from several different classes, since there isn't anyway that I'm familiar with to get all those bonuses at 15th, especially a crit range of 13-20 on a bow (did you mean 18-20) or the ability damage.

In any case the example would be for that character being substantially more unbalanced in that situation with a x4 crit vs a x3 crit. I really don't think there's that much of a difference between the two. Especially considering that bonus damage is not multiplied in your campaign, so it's 4d8+3d10 vs 3d8+2d10 or an average of about 9 points more, since all the other factors are the same. Nor does a crit range of 18-20 substantially increase the odds of a crit vs 19-20 for that matter and they are still a fairly rare occurence.

In any case my argument wasn't that the characters wouldn't be powerful, it was that they wouldn't be too powerful relative to the other characters. In other words, if the 15th level archer is too powerful, then so are the rest of the characters in all probability.So there is little point in singleling out the archers.

Re: Meteor Swarm, yes arrows don't have those disadvantages, but neither can arrows cross vast distances in a moment (teleport), find enemies across the planet (scry), alter reality (wish) or any of the myriad of things that a caster can do. Being better in one area than casters are shouldn't be a crisis. Especially when it is the one area where they are supposed to excel vs all other classes.

I lean much more towards offering new feats (particularly new chains) that benefit everyone than more PrCs. I also tend to disagree that most classes get boring after 6th level, but that's only my opinion.

Actually I wouldn't be opposed to offering a wider range of feats vs having prestige classes, though there probably should be some form of increased rate of feats being earned (something like how it works for most epic classes). That would remove much of the need for them.

Re: boring after 6th. You haven't had a long discussion on this point with Jozan's player or Gunther's players I see.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: boring after 6th. You haven't had a long discussion on this point with Jozan's player or Gunther's players I see.

Well, I haven't seen Aethramyr/Jozan run out of feats to get or power-ups for his mount, not to mention new spells...which is no different than it is for other spell-casters. As for Gunter...well, let's just say that that's more a function of Gunter's 1-dimensionality than anything else. A barbarian that multiclasses into fighter to get more fighting feats doesn't show that the barbarian is boring...or otherwise the fighter should be equally as boring, AFAICT.

 

[francisca]

My approach to the PrC issue is to leave it to the players to generate an idea, then hash out the details with me.

The homebrew I run does not have longstanding power centers. I've told my players they can use published PrCs as inspiration and mine them for ideas. When they come up with an idea for a PrC, they apporach me, we workout the rationale from an RP/setting perspective, then hash out the mechanics.

Essentially, the players get to be the first PrC (iconic?) of a particular type in the world. The RP opportunities are huge there. If they choose to let it end, and not pursue that class anymore, so be it; there might be consequences.

If they train others, the PC and the organization founded by him/her become power centers, which opens up a big can of worms from an RP perspective.

So, I will/do allow prestige classes, but the players have to invest time and creativity into it. A real nice benefit of this process is that the players get some ownership over the setting, which make them think in character more often.

Again, the caveat is that there are no longstanding power centers spitting out Prestigious NPCs for the players to aspire too. However, now that the campaign is moving along, I'll have to introduce some NPC based organizations as a foil to the PCs.

This approach has worked well for us, and I hope it may help out some of you. Your mileage may vary.....

 

[S'mon]

I agree with the suggestion that multiclassing can create a very nice and suitably min-maxed Rogueish fighter type. Eg my PC Cebo started life as a Rogue 1, from there he went Fighter 1 (was fighting all the time) with Bastard Sword XWP, then Ranger 1 (lots of wilderness scouting), at 3rd level he was almost as tough as the pure fighter (who had 2 '18's, AIR!) with lots of handy abilities, dual-wielding bastard sword in one hand & shortsword in the other and wearing chain shirt.

For a 6th level PC, Rogue 1 (first class for x4 skills)/Ranger 1/Fighter 4 (weapon specialisation) is practically munchkinesque!