I want my Prestige classes

[Sniktch]

Re: Re: I want my Prestige classes

Edit: As a brief note, I *never* allow a player who comes in at a higher level to start with a prestige class. IME, this has led directly to some gawd-awful characters with the personality of bricks - but who can "kick-butt"!

This also depends upon the players, the DM, and the game. I recently allowed someone who was making a new character to start out as a goblin diviner/alienist. Does he kick butt? Yes. Is he a flat character? No - in fact he's already developed into one of the cooler party members and one of the players' favorites.

 

[Arnwyn]

Re: Re: Re: I want my Prestige classes

This also depends upon the players, the DM, and the game. I recently allowed someone who was making a new character to start out as a goblin diviner/alienist. Does he kick butt? Yes. Is he a flat character? No - in fact he's already developed into one of the cooler party members and one of the players' favorites.

I agree, which is why I noted "IME", and what *I* do. It is in no way telling anyone that they must do it that particularly way. Just something I've discovered through experience.

 

[schporto]

I see prestige classes as specific jobs. Drawing analogies to the real world, it would be similar to having a computer programmer who wants to work at Black Isle. Yeah he can apply, he may be turned down, and probably will need to have some other job. A lot of folks may want to be politicians, but only a few can get elected to a state level office, let alone a national one. The prc is that 'exceptional' job. So yeah the prc's should be limited, and not just a given. I mean if the player wants a +5 Vorpal Sword of Jaberwocky slaying (it goes Snicker Snak), should the DM just go "Sure give me Xgp and its yours."
-cpd

 

[WizarDru]

I have several players that haven't used prestige classes, and a few who haven't multiclassed. I allow them, but deny individual classes on an ad-hoc basis. One of the most successful characters in my main game is a 19th-level Paladin. I think that, used properly, PrCs are excellent flavor-enhancers, and really serve well to differentiate characters.

The characters in my main game (roughly):

Paladin 10
FTR5/SOR6/AA7
Wiz10/MoAA9
CLR11/RSOP4/Shadowed [HotD variant]5
Rog12/SD5/GtCr2
DRD15/VRDLD 4


The thing I enjoy is that they have options open to them. Some clases I just wouldn't allow, such as the Deepwood Sniper, which I found to be too strong. PrCs are, to me, a way to enhance my players options, AT MY DISCRETION. No one will have fun if I allow a player to take an over-powered class, allowing him to overpower the game to the detriment of others. That's why prestige classes need to be optional. Add to the equation the fact that many PrCs aren't well tested or are written in a vacuum, without considering the interaction with other material. Consider the combination of fighter, Order of the Bow Initiate and Deepwood Sniper. Combined, they can create grant stacking abilities that are too powerful for the level provided, due to ability synergy.

Further, in a game where PrCs are rare, attaining one becomes a desirable player goal, in and of itself. And a good game always offers the players another carrot, IMHO.

 

[Rackhir]

One thing is, that killing prestige classes tends to favor Casters over non-casters. Since with a caster, the most important thing is your caster level generally and they get to do new and interesting things at higher levels via spells.

If you are a fighter type your ways of differentiating the character or enabling new and interesting abilities are very limited. Most fighter type classes essentially get nothing new from their base class after about 5-6 level generally except the ability to do X 1 time a day more. The situation is nearly as bad with regards to feats. Lets face it by the time you've hit about 8-10 level as a fighter you have pretty much all the feats that are going to make a difference with whatever fighting style you've chosen.

Take an archer for example you get a very different feel for a character with levels in OoBI vs DWS vs AA. Without prestige classes the archers all pretty much look alike.

I don't have a problem with limiting or restricting or even rewriting the prestige classes. There is a very good and very strong argument for making the characters jump through RP hoops to get into a prestige class or to take further levels in it, but just killing them off completely or restricting them to the point of uselessness robs characters of substantial flavor.

 

[Voadam]

Take an archer for example

Says the Red Archer.

 

[Voadam]

It is too bad to get psyched up for a prestige class and then have it nixed.

It is the DMs call on whether and how to implement prcs though.

What is the front line rogue prc concept you were wanting to pursue?

The options this leaves you with are:

Straight core classes with multiclassing possibilities such as rgr 1 rogue 5.

Modifying core classes for a concept such as the suggestions in the DMG (I think there is a hybrid fighter rogue in there).

Get books with neat new core classes, such as Nyambe, KOK Player's guide, Mercenaries, Magic, Beyond Monks, Forgotten Heroes Paladins, etc.

You could even try cross genre classes, some levels of fast hero and strong hero on top of a rogue.

 

[Crothian]

First off, it really doesn't matter if ever Pc in the world has aprestige class or that most don't. All that matters is the people in the game and the DM. Why isn't he allowing PC classes? I have no problm with people not using them or limiting them but too many DMs do this without good reason, or without reason. It's not just his game, the PCs are part of it as well. Prestige classes are an option, but the PCs should be in on the choice to determine if they are allowed.

 

[Rackhir]

The thing I enjoy is that they have options open to them. Some clases I just wouldn't allow, such as the Deepwood Sniper, which I found to be too strong. PrCs are, to me, a way to enhance my players options, AT MY DISCRETION. No one will have fun if I allow a player to take an over-powered class, allowing him to overpower the game to the detriment of others. That's why prestige classes need to be optional. Add to the equation the fact that many PrCs aren't well tested or are written in a vacuum, without considering the interaction with other material. Consider the combination of fighter, Order of the Bow Initiate and Deepwood Sniper. Combined, they can create grant stacking abilities that are too powerful for the level provided, due to ability synergy.

**Note** - My statements here are with regards to fighter type classes. Caster Prestige classes are outside my area of experience and generally seem to be more likely to be abusable to me.

I still think you worry too much about Prestige class combo's. Can the abilities create a synergistic effect feeding off each other. Sure, but don't forget by the time you have substantial levels in two prestige classes you are hitting the top end of the class range and EVERYONE is obscenely powerful.

Take your proposed OoBI-DWS. I don't think that upping the crit multiplier from x3 to x4 is "too powerful for the level" for say a 17th level char. It's certainly no worse than going from DB Fireball to Meteor Swarm. If you can't cope with the synergistic effect of multiple prestige classes at 16-20th level, then you probably can't cope with characters of those levels period.

Leaving the highly warped and smackdown specific circumstances aside, multiple prestige classes don't necessarily convey significantly more power. I've run a Rng 1/F4/OoBi3/DWS3 and he was in no way more powerful than the F6/Bar1/OoBI4 I had at the same point in your campaign. So my experiences don't bear out your conclusions about DWS or even DWS-OoBI combos. And you know I know how to make/run an effective archer. Peerless archer OTOH, well even I'd have to agree that they are a broken prestige class btw (permitting Power Attack for archers, that's just nuts).

The other thing about multiple prestige classes, is that most characters will finish off a prestige class (probably at around 16-17 lv) before hitting epic level, given that most prestige classes kick in at around levels 6-7 (ie. qualifying at 5-6th). Meaning that the character has no place to go for 4-6 levels if they want to either persue their main shtick (epic - Prestige class prog) or really even take a different tack for the most part as adding another 4-6 fighter levels really gains you little other than some BAB and HP.

quote:
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Originally posted by Rackhir


Take an archer for example
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Says the Red Archer.

You were expecting an analysis based on Moonglum or Elric perhaps?

 

[Gothmog]

PrCs are ok, as long as they make sense for the world the DM has created. I personally don't allow any of the PrCs from the DMG, or any of the WoTC splatbooks in my game- they simply aren't right for the flavor of my world. I have created a few PrCs of my own for specific purposes, religious orders, etc- but they are few are far between. I think that PrCs should be the elite of their chosen fields, and not something most characters should be aware of the requirements for beforehand. If a character learns of a PrC IN GAME and their abilities, then decides he wants to pursue it in the game via NPC contacts and training, thats fine- but shooting for a PrC from first level seems really munchkin to me.

However, it does seem that most PrCs are grossly overpowered, and are often vehicles for munchkin twinkery. The worst offenders are the spellcasting ones that allow +1 caster level per level of the presteige class, while also granting scads of extra abilities. I have played in a high-level game that had a fighter 7/dwarven defender 5, a rogue 6/assassin 6, and a cleric 6/church inquisitor 6 (which was my character), and those characters that had PrCs dominated over the other characters without them. We created those characters at 10th level, and it took a lot of effort to keep those characters from becoming stereotypes of their respective PrCs. So yeah, I can understand why your DM would be leery of characters taking PrCs, especially newly made characters. Too often people see them as a gateway for "cool powerz" without considering the roleplaying possibilities and implications they incur.