I wish D&D could have been more heroic

[Edena_of_Neith]

Just that.
D&D is about heroic fantasy, among many other themes.

In the film The Two Towers, we see Aragorn and Gimli pulling a heroic stunt at Helm's Deep (the situation where Gimli was tossed, and Aragorn leaped, into the attackers at the Gate.)
In the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, we see John Carter storming from one pole of Mars to the other in search of Dejah Thoris, his lady, taking on all perils along the way.
In Moongather, we see a young girl stand against the world's most powerful wizard. He tortures her and ultimately leaves her to die in a desert, but it is Serroi who triumphs, not Ser Noris.
I would not call Thomas Covenant a hero, but certainly many of his friends were, such as Saltheart Foamfollower and Lord Mhoram.
I would call Moreta a hero. When the influenza, unknown on Pern, struck, she was in the vanguard of those who fought it and saved the people of that world.
Ged of Earthsea ran from the Shadow he summoned, but he learned wisdom and turned the tables on it. And Tenar had the strength and courage to throw aside her worship of the Dark Ones in Atuan.
Amberle of the Westland was no warrior woman, but she sacrificed herself to save her people. And when Allanon knew his death approached, foretold by Bremen, he faced it stoically, and made the best of the time he had left.

What about Sturm Brightblade. Does anyone remember Dragonlance?
The Battle of the High Clerist's Tower would have been lost if it had not been for Sturm, who was killed in that battle.
And had that battle been lost, Takhisis would have won.
For that matter, what about the final sacrifice and heroism of Paladine himself? (those who read the most recent Dragonlance Trilogy, will know what I speak of.)

Ok, so Drizzt Do'Urden is maybe too much about swordsmanship. I suppose a good Fireball would teach him better wisdom.
Yet Drizzt had the courage to leave Menzoberranzan, while his caring and accomplished father, Zaknafein, did not.
Arilyn Moonblade had the courage to tell it like it was to Queen Amlaruil. And she wasn't nice about it, but she was explicit. Nothing like drastically dissing the queen of your mother's race, because you have a legitimate grievance.

- - -

Unfortunately, people say: What happens in books and films must remain in books and films.
People say: books and films are two different mediums from roleplaying.
People say: the dice allow for possibilities, and what was done in books and films is not possible in gaming.
People also say: One side or another cannot win, for if this happens, the book is closed (admittedly, it is sad when the book is closed, but sadder in my view when it can never be closed.)

I have characters who measure up to the standards set by Aragorn and Gimli, John Carter and Serroi, Moreta and Mhoram, Drizzt and Arilyn.
Unfortunately, most people consider my characters of this ilk to be crazy.
Perhaps they are right ... but I am not sure crazy is relevant in such situations as those posed in fantasy.

For example ...

Edena is my oldest character, and my favorite, and I named this SN after him.
He is a warrior-cleric and an apprentice mage.

Edena believes (from his point of view, he knows for a fact) that there is no Afterlife worth going to ... Nifleheim is the ultimate fate of all who die.
Nifleheim is, in D&D mythology, a part of the Grey Waste, the Plane of ultimate Neutral Evil.
Those who go there, are drained of all the meanings of existence, and sit without meaning upon the cold, dark, endless gloom of the place. In the end, fire consumes them and they pass into oblivion.
The absolute best someone in the Grey Waste (or Nifleheim) can hope for, is to be taken by Night Hags to be turned into Larvae, and ultimately to either become undead or fiends, or to be devoured by fiends.

This belief does not make Edena very happy, but it does make life very valuable to him.
For in life, is all the meaning that there is, or ever will be.

Now, add to this Odin (or Wotan, as the Norse called him.)
Odin goes to Edena, and Odin says: Be a champion, for life is short, and the best you can hope for is to make a big splash while you live.
Later, Odin goes to Edena, and Odin says: Be a champion of life, happiness, and fulfillment, and fight for those things as hard as you fought in battle against all your foes.
Thus, you have a good aligned character, who happens to be rather quite the risk taker in battle. Not because he wishes death, but because he cherishes life. (An irony if I ever saw one.)

Osilovar is a paladin. That is, he is MY version of a paladin (chuckles.)
Osilovar does not hold with secrecy or stealth, or with the strategic arrow or the tactical boiling oil.
Nay. Osilovar wants battle. Good ole straight out battle, toe to toe, against the foe (although I will admit, when he decided to punch one of the Lords of Ravenloft, that was pushing it. A Good thing Osilovar knocked out said Lord with that punch, and an entire Ravenloft Domain collapsed!)
Osilovar has a great horn, and he blows it before all battles.
Osilovar will not cooperate with those who insist on stealth and secrecy, but must instead blow that horn, and heroically charge the parapet of the enemy fortress.
When he dies, he knows, a wondrous Afterlife in Elysium awaits him.
The dentist also awaits Osilovar.
Other characters have a problem with that horn. For they wish secrecy and stealth, not brave open honest strokes of war.
So, the horn tends to get bashed with the nearest heavy mace, and if Osilovar is blowing it, this is hard on his front teeth (by the way, Laying On Hands DOES allow you to put your front teeth back in, if said teeth are intact and sitting around.)
That horn has suffered many dark fates, but Osilovar always finds a way to resurrect it. It has been smashed, and it has been slashed, and stomped (by people in full armor jumping up and down on it), and burned, and even Fireballed.
Somehow, that horn is ever regenerating. You just can't keep a good paladin down.
One thing that horn has never done, however, is cause the death of another party member.
Osilovar is heroic, but he cares about his friends, and sometimes he must shelf his gallantry and think of his friends first.

Trillirra is an elven maiden of Haldendreeva.
Trillirra, is a nice girl.
She is pleasant and social, courteous and gentle. A reasonable comparison might be to Laurana of Dragonlance, or to one of the more well behaved and lofty elves of the Forgotten Realms.
Trillirra, really likes to engage in pleasant and rewarding friendships, with trust being paramount, and everyone benefitting from an altrustic situation.
Trillirra, cannot kill or harm her own kind, or half-elves (who count as her own kind) unless they insist on starting hostilities, and then she will only defend herself as needed.
Trillirra, considers the idea of elves (or half-elves) killing elves (or half-elves) to be utterly crazy! (She would consider Kymil Nemesin of the Forgotten Realms to be a truly Lost Soul ...)

However ...

Trillirra does not hold with humans and those of other races (such as the humanoid races) attacking her or her friends.
Her answer to this aggression is an extreme answer.
Her answer, is Total War. Immediate war, without pity, or remorse, and most certainly without quarter given or asked for.
Trillirra feels attempts to kill her or her friends deserves appropriate punishment.
Trillirra's idea of punishment is to take the offender alive, torture him or her for as long as is physically (or magically) possible, then devour him or her alive.
Unlike Osilovar, Trillirra has the attitude that if the tactic works, then it should be used. Be it stealth and secrecy, or poison, or lies and deception, or nefarious (read horrific, black necromantic type) magic, all is fair in war.
Trillirra, being elven, has some traits you won't find sitting around in humans. Such as eating leaves and insects, gnawing on wood (and the bones of eaten foes), being a beautiful green color, and enjoying fresh raw meat (cooked meat horrifies her.)
Trillirra, also enjoys nudity. A point that has caused her considerable grief in human society.

I have a character who believes in Balance.
Her name is Cyndelle, and she is a Druid.
Cyndelle does not preach Balance, but enforces it.
If the King will not allow a fair division of forest and field, then Cyndelle will do it herself, and if the King sends his soldiers and there must be war over the matter, then there must be war.
Cyndelle believes paladins and blackguards are dangerous, and should be killed or deterred from their unreasonable actions. She does not differentiate one or the other as being more unreasonable: they are both ridiculous in their thinking.
Cyndelle believes the good guys and the bad guys both have an equal place in her forest, so long as they behave themselves and one does not attempt to destroy the other.
In other words, Cyndelle is Balance with a Vengeance. If the Balance is not observed, and diplomacy on the matter fails, then someone is going to have to learn the hard way that Balance must be maintained. Even if it kills them.

None of these characters is typical for D&D, in my experience.
Certainly, none of them would fit in in Raven's Bluff, the Living City of the RPGA.
For these are all rabble-rousers, inciters to riot and mayhem, and all are willing to draw steel or hurl spell to make their point.
All are strongly opinionated people. All are strongly courageous in their own ways. All are exceptional (or exceptionally bad) in their own ways.

They are drawn from books and films, and I use the standards of books and films when I play them.
When I try to play these characters, I try to emulate the stuff of the books and films I have read and seen.

For some reason, this offends most gamers.
Don't ask me why, for I do not know the answer to the question.
The gamers I have played with, disliked heroism, were adverse to outstanding concepts, and equated valor with stupidity.
Again, do not ask me why they were so, for I cannot answer the question.

I can, however, say that I grew tired of endless efforts to find those who felt that roleplaying could live up to the books that inspired it. That roleplaying could be as huge and heroic, or as dark and grim, as all the tales set down in words or seen on the silver screen.

For example, Edena is intensely disliked for his willingness to take stands, and fight for them, and his own side has turned on him repeatedly (by his side, I mean the good guys. The good aligned folk.)
Osilovar is, of course, stupid. Or so you would believe, if you listened to those I played with. And if Osilovar lived in the Real World, so it would be. But not in D&D. Not in D&D, in my book.
There was amazement at Trillirra's unwillingness to strike at her own kind. This quickly translated into every player of an elven character attacking Trillirra, who of course was severely handicapped in protecting herself. Why is the concept of an elf who will not kill other elves so outrageous?

(shrugs)

There should be more and not fewer outstanding characters in the game.
Trecking after treasure is great, and doing it safely and staidly is fine, but the game is more than just this.
Good roleplaying is fine, but fantastical concepts and outrageous conceptions have their place too.

There is a place for heroes and heroines in D&D.
A pity that this place is so squeezed to make room for the mundane.
Haven't we got enough mundanity in our Real World to last us a lifetime?

(sighs)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(wistful remembrance)

The three IRs were not mundane.

Cheers to all who played in them!

(Although I doubt the Forgotten Realms design team had or have such changes to their campaign world sitting on the table ...)

 

[Horacio]

Wow, Edena, really your posts are... insighful... in a twisted way...
I mean, after trying to read them twice, and get used to the style, I have arrived to understand what you mean... I think...

I think the heroics or not heroic don't depend on the game, but on players. I've been in Cthulhu games where the characters were truely heroic, in the sense of facing hopeless situation because that was what they believed. And I've seen D&D parties that were selfish and bullies, attacking only when knowing that nothing could go wrong... Players, not game system... IMHO and YMMV, of course.

 

[Darkness]

(Although I doubt the Forgotten Realms design team had or have such changes to their campaign world sitting on the table ...)

You are aware of the Time of Troubles, right?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am sure Call of Cthulu is a great game, but I have never played it.
I am guessing Call of Cthlulu is akin to a more serious version of the game Paranoia, in which there is no chance of your character surviving, and you know this, but you play anyways.
In Paranoia, dark humor is the point, but in Call of Cthulu dramatic horror is called for. You know your character is dead before you even start, but you're going to enjoy the scene, the thrills, and being scared to death, on the way.
Do I have it right? I played Chill for a while, and that was how it worked in that game.

 

[Horacio]

I am sure Call of Cthulu is a great game, but I have never played it.
I am guessing Call of Cthlulu is akin to a more serious version of the game Paranoia, in which there is no chance of your character surviving, and you know this, but you play anyways.
In Paranoia, dark humor is the point, but in Call of Cthulu dramatic horror is called for. You know your character is dead before you even start, but you're going to enjoy the scene, the thrills, and being scared to death, on the way.
Do I have it right? I played Chill for a while, and that was how it worked in that game.

Not exactly...

Most players take two routes: either being a coward selfish self-preservating investigator, as most of us would be in real life, or being an heroic yet almost hopeless characters.

Like a 1st level PC in D&D can choose to be coward and self-preserving or be heroic.

Game system doesn't matter, it's the players and their attitude that matters in Heroism...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there, Darkness. Long time no see!

Oh yes, I know of the Time of Troubles. Undulating landscapes. Five suns in the sky at once. Magic gone berserk.

However ... (delicious grin) ... we have them beat in the IR. Especially since our changes to Toril and Realmspace were permanent.

After the first IR, Toril ...
Had a green sky.
Had a tropical climate worldwide.
Had the lofty and powerful United Commonwealth of Toril, lead by Reprisal's farsighted and noble Speaker, and rich in diversity and high technology, not to mention powerful technomancy. From gnome to kender, to elf and dwarf, to neoillithid and scro, the United Commonwealth was a place of peace, tolerance, and prosperity for all.
Had the fiendish and powerful Humanoid League, led by the famous Forrester. The elves of Evermeet had joined in harmony (and in mating) with their humanoid kindred, and the eldest daughter of Amlaruil was King Forrester's concubine (there was no Evermeet, for Forrester sank it.)
Had the Deep Illithid as a major evil power, lurking under all the world, plotting the ultimate demise of Toril's sun (they almost succeeded, by the way, in putting it out.)
Had Hope Isle (the former Nimbral Isle) where the Angels had created a haven of peace and beauty for those who could not fit in elsewhere in the world.
Had Bran's Druids, who ruled Maztica and who were Toril's only hope of bringing back the lost Faerie, upon whom the health of the world depended.
Had Zouron's Magocracy, in which all the Shining South was a part. A place akin to Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, but on a continental scale, and with NO avenues of research ruled out (after all, Zouron was a necromancer himself.)
Had the Eternal Union, which had been Kara-Tur, in which those nations allied in a powerful military union to contest for dominance of Toril and Realmspace with the United Commonwealth. And no, the Eternal Union did NOT tolerate kender.
Had the Church of Toril, in which the religions of Lathander, Sune, Llirra, Gond, Sharess, Oghma and several others had joined. The purpose? Hedonistic joy, advancement of the state of all folk, and fulfillment of the brightest dreams of great minds.
Had the Church of Mercy. Founded upon the memory of the great hero who led the Technomancy to victory and true greatness, this Church was about remembrance of deeds done, about solemn philosophy, and cautious thinking to advance the good of all.
The Church of Darkness. One cannot put down the Sharites! (especially when it is Melkor who is running them) For Evil would yet rule supreme in Realmspace, and the triumph of nobler ideas be undone and hurled down in ruin, and the Darkness would swallow up all, be they noble beings or selfish folk.
The Starfleet of the United Commonwealth. Armed with 10th level magic, particle cannons, and thermonuclear warheads, this fleet of sublight (but planeshifting capable) ships kept the peace in Wildspace. Since elves had been exterminated across all of Realmspace, and the last remnant existed only in the Humanoid League (or in hiding in Maztica), there was now peace, and the Scro Armada was disbanded. Of course, the Eternal Union would create it's own fleet to challenge the supremacy of the Starfleet, and the two would keep a wary watch on the other.

Waterdeep, Candlekeep, and other coastal cities had to be rebuilt after all the coasts were flooded, and after the seas rose 500 feet when the poles melted.
Thay joined the Technomancy, and the Red Wizards moderated, finding in war and hardship that coexistance was indeed profitable, not to mention their best chance of survival.
Larloch was forcefully converted to good, when the fledgling Church of Toril invoked their Great Ceremony, and he joined the United Commonwealth (indeed, he is a distinguished member of Parliament today. One cannot put a good lich down, I guess.)

The Gnomes triumphed in their technology, and technomancy flourished. The industrial revolution swept Toril as throughly as the War, and even the Chosen of Mystra bowed to it (although they would later hold a tribunal in which to charge EVERYONE with crimes, and demand EVERYONE submit to their justice. That was the second IR.)
Great cities arose, skyscrapers pierced the clouds, highways and railways linked every city, smokestacks belched, the forests fell, and the elves and druids were swept away. (They still hold Maztica, and ultimately the United Commonwealth regrew the forests ...)
Now, cities to rival San Francisco as it exists in Star Trek, and great Humanoid Conclaves built both on the surface and for miles down, and the military fortress cities of the Eternal Union, and the Mythal warded magical skycities of Maztica, came to dominate the world of Toril, which had changed out of all recognition from it's old self.

Only in the neutral nations of the Chosen of Mystra (Luruar, Shadowdale, Aglarond, etc.) did old ways hold, and there many great things from Toril's past were preserved, and it's histories were remembered. The old medieval cities were rebuilt, and the past existed as a physical presence for all to see.

This was in the first IR. Of course, the change had only begun. Bigger things yet were to happen.
And the change would sweep into Greyspace, and Krynnspace, and into Athas, Mystara, and many other places.

Yeah, I do not think the Forgotten Realms Design Team would so change the world of Toril ... of course, I could be wrong, you know!!
The entirety of the First IR can be accessed online. Simply go to In Character and ask for the URL from someone there - many remember the First IR fondly (especially me.)

But for God's sake, don't tell Ed Greenwood or Steven Schend. The last thing I need is to be lynched (and I will be, when they hear of illithid and humans cavorting, kender running free, starships and nukes, and most of all when they hear Queen Amlaruil's eldest daughter is the concubine of Lord Forrester of many humanoid races, and the elves of Evermeet have joined as one people with their humanoid brethren!)

 

[Bagpuss]

Can Edena ever express herself in less than 1000 words?

Sorry even with all thouse examples I don't get your point. My RPGs are very heroic.

In the roleplay games I play I have characters like...

Alum Strongarm, would held up a portcullis while being hacked at orc warriors, just so the men in his platoon could escape the kill space under the guard house. He later carried out one of his wounded men over his shoulder while fighting off more orcs.

Had a cop in cyberpunk that acted as a decoy for a group of Dragoons cyborgs so the rest of his unit could escape with the civilians.

Have fighters that are devoted followers of their deity without the need to be paladins, or get any reward. Had a gnome that refused to worship the gods even when they appear to him in person (when he died he could not be raised).

Had a female priest of Idun (goddess of love) that was quick to point out the difference between love and sex to any man that thought she was easy (this character was played by a male).

Whole crew of a starship in Star Trek, volunteered to go one a one way mission to save the Federation against a Borg invasion, all are now posted MIA.

What's interesting is most of the heroic characters I've mentioned are dead. This reflects books and real life where a real hero is willing to face up to impossible odds for what they believe, and so often die defending what they believe in (or value). It only tends to be Hollywood that needs a happy ending for all its heros.

Out of interest how many of the heroic characters you've mentioned are dead?

 

[Psion]

Just that.
D&D is about heroic fantasy, among many other themes.

In the film The Two Towers, we see Aragorn and Gimli pulling a heroic stunt at Helm's Deep (the situation where Gimli was tossed, and Aragorn leaped, into the attackers at the Gate.)
In the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, we see John Carter storming from one pole of Mars to the other in search of Dejah Thoris, his lady, taking on all perils along the way.
(...)

Are you playing the same game I am playing. Heroism is the very essence of D&D. Of course, you have to play the game with that in mind, but I have had not problem running my game that way. In the past 2 years, my current PC group has saved an important emmisary from drow assassins, prevented the creation of the doom engine, and artifact that would create and control thousands of undead, stopped a tyrant from acquiring a legion of killer constructs, thwarted the plans of wizards who wished to subjugate the free people, saved their leige from abduction by the psionic oligarchs from the nation from which he was exiled, saved the reborn queen from permanent desctruction and discovered who she really was. The next two adventure will culminate with the laying low of a crime syndicate run by demons, the summoning of a legion of dragons, and the deposing of a tyranical emperor.

I'm sorry, but it the DM has the will at all, I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

This is a function of the DM/players, not D&D itself. Heck, if anything D&D has increased in its action film heroic appeal with the inclusion of feats and the like.

Plenty of heroes in my game (go read diaglo's story hour -- lots of movie-type heroic acts, if occasionaly poorly described).

If you're game isn't heroic -- find another or change it!