I wish D&D could have been more heroic

[zouron]

Edena if you want to discuss it in email or another media sure go ahead and send an email (same old email address zouron@hotmail.com), ohh and what I metn about leaving, I ment you should leave a snail mail address or telephone number so we could reach you, not nessecary on the boards but then in an email (the snail mail address I have for you I have no idea how valid it is), anyway William at least was greatly concerned and wanted to call you and hear what's what (I admit I was not as concerned because I have great trust in your abilities and all ).

uhh BTW on the alliance thing, treiss won a staff of the guardians, so if you ever use your character again ;-) treiss has been by to hand it over, and true the alliance was controversial back there (kyra has a few times tried to start it up again, but a few people mostly alliance put an end to it... amoung other one of the former leaders going into a claim of right to leadership etc).

Yeah I do have a lot of tragic characters (treiss turned tragic to *laughs*), I suppose I guess playing such characters at the moment, ohh well.

Ohh well let us continue this in emails ;-) so I don't hijeck your thread to a personal chit chat place

 

[Creamsteak]

Thanks Edena, for catching up to my post! You really should be the one with my sig, as I'm only about half as fast as you when it comes to pulling workloads that are above and beyond the call.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To my friends!

(look of real delight)

Anabstercorian, Serpenteye, Creamsteak, Zouron, Forsaken One, Darkness, John Brown, Tokiwong, Psion, William, Reprisal!
Just typing in those names, here, is a pleasure.
Gods, it's good to see all of you again!

To hijack my own thread for a moment, let me repeat what I said in In Character:

On Kaboom's Isle of the Phoenix, east of the mainland of the Flanaess of Greyhawk (Oerth), there was a Gate to an Alternate Oerth.
This Gate was not destroyed in the 3rd IR, and the Alternate Oerth was not affected by the 3rd IR.

Well, that Alternate Oerth, along with the Parallel Reality it sits in, awaits another IR!
After all, it WAS mentioned, the Alternate Oerth, in the 3rd IR, and all of you COULD have gone to that Alternate Oerth and used it in the 3rd IR, but you didn't.

So it's still there, it is not a part of the Demiplane of Hope, but it IS like the official setting - and that parallel reality has settings like the official settings.

So, if someone wants to go through that Gate (trust me when I say things from Outside - MELKOR, TAKE NOTE! - can freely come INTO the Demiplane of Hope through that Gate!) they can freely go, out of the Demiplane of Hope to the Parallel Reality.

An IR in the Alternate Reality would be neat.
Once more, you'd have a chance to change the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Athas, Mystara, and perhaps in the Alternate Reality the d20 Settings are at hand - Kalamar, the Scarred Lands, and all the others!

Or perhaps, those fiendish gnomes in the Alternate Reality are busybodies themselves, and in the Alternate Forgotten Realms they are ... as with the Forgotten Realms of the First IR ... building factories, felling woodlands, laying down railroads, putting up telegraph lines ... perhaps, just perhaps, it is starting all over again, in the Alternate Forgotten Realms.

After all, as the IRs proved, you can't put a good gnome down (or can you? Maybe someone who loves elves and hates gnomes with a passion, a reverse of Forrester, would come to the fore ...)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To William

Posted by William

William Ronald
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Summit, IL, USA
Posts: 1364

Edena, welcome back again!
Heroism is a choice and can be expressed in many different ways. For example, the paladin you mentioned is heroic to perhaps the point of foolhardiness in the eyes of some. However, he is someone that most players would want as an ally to rally troops in a battle.
The issue of stealth can be a sensitive one for paladins. I tend to think of stealth as something a paladin will use or tolerate in order to save lives -- besides his own. He may be willing to help sneak past a dragon to save an innocent, but he should be planning for the day when he will smite the beast. Similarly, if he has to use a back entrance to reach a blackguard, I expect a paladin will personally challenge his foe face to face.
What matters is the readiness of a hero to fight and, if need be, die for their beliefs.
There are different sorts of heroism. I have played a few characters who sacrificed their own lives to defeat tyrants and save the lives of friends. My DM has usually rewarded players for such sacrifices, as they add depth to the game.
So, I think the problem lies not in the game but in the players. Maybe what you need are a few heroic players.

To William from Edena

I made a mistake in that I implied that only my brand of heroism, was heroic.
Let me correct that now. There are many kinds of heroism, and when I say I wish D&D was more heroic I am referring to my experiences only, with a few players who are not representative of the gaming whole (especially, not representative of people like those in the IR, who were several major cuts better as players than those in my far past), and by heroism I was referring to my definition of heroism only, and how I was frustrated in efforts to play heroic characters as I saw them.
However, I merely observe, and do not engage in self-pity. I observe that in my far past, I had trouble finding players and DMs who enjoyed playing along with my style, when I played what I thought of as heroic characters.

(shrugs)

Hey, that's how it was.
So I had some trouble long ago. Big deal.
People like those in the IR, were so incredibly fun to play with, and the memories so grand, that a few stumblings earlier on are dwarfed, and the better memories shine like the day.

As for Osilovar, he was your stereotypical foolish Let's Charge In and Whack the Bad Guys kind of paladin.
I had a paladin who was very philosophical and thought out named Anora, Defender of the Veil. But Osilovar was more about simple rough-and-tumble fun. A go-get-em character. If Osilovar's concept was strong, it was strong in that is what he was. He was not more than that, but he was not less either.
Osilovar would have gotten along as well with the classic cautious elves walking noiselessly and unseen through the woodlands, as a banker would get along with a crowd of kender.
But when in the company of Big Bad Barbarians, ready to Hurl the Axe, then follow up with the Sword (who needs that magic stuff? Bah! Tricks and deceptions. Give me a good blade!), then Osilovar was in his element.

Anora, on the other hand, has the attitude of Whatever It Takes to Win, SO LONG AS (insert here such things as: Innocents are not hurt, no collateral damage, no evil magic (black necromancy), etc.)

Anora, would use poison (GASP!) to kill the foe.
Anora, would not hesitate to strike down an enemy with arrows.
Anora, would not hesitate to Lightning Bolt an unaware (and defenseless) enemy.

But if you ask Anora to harm someone because they might be an enemy (he's an orc! They are all evil foes. Kill him!) (He may be a child now, but he will grow into a man, and take arms up against you.) (He did not fight, but he is an Enemy Sympathizer) then Anora is going to refuse to draw blood.

Osilovar and Anora, although both paladins, would have to work hard to stay together in the same group. Both would make the effort, but both would be very uncomfortable with the other.
(Anora: That paladin sounded his horn, and now many on our side will die, unnecessarily, because the foe is aware of us. What's worse, he is now demanding a charge into battle, where our people will die in hand to hand combat, when we can shoot down the foe from a distance, and nobody on our side has to die.)
(Osilovar: She is a paladin, and uses poison? Fights as a coward would? Slays unarmed, defenseless foes? Kills the helpless wounded where they lay?)

 

[Reprisal]

Hey Edena,

I'd like to thank you for those kind words you've already said about the way I played Iain Payne during the first and second IRs. They really made my day when I read them, so thanks!

Once more, you'd have a chance to change the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Athas, Mystara, and perhaps in the Alternate Reality the d20 Settings are at hand - Kalamar, the Scarred Lands, and all the others!

I've always wanted to run a Kalamar Industrial Revolution, but I've never known if anyone was interested in it... Over the year and a bit that I've owned Kalamar, it would seem that I now have a level of comprehension approaching that of your own of Faerun or Oerth in regards to Kalamar.

I'd love to run it, but I think such an endeavour may be limited by the degree of familiarity others might (not) have with the setting. That and the sheer time it would take, I'd have to do the bulk of it before and during Spring Break since the time afterwards would demand to be used for the essays I have to write for my classes...

Playing in another IR would be most fulfilling, especially since it's not as work-intensive as running such an event. I think, this time, I might take the other side of the debate... I'm not entirely certain, since I'm fairly liberal (in the economic sense) in my day-to-day, it might be difficult to try to argue for things that I personally don't believe to be necessarily true...

Still, it's a thought, and as ever, the possibilities are endless,

- Rep.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Reprisal

Posted by Reprisal

Reprisal
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 182

Welcome Back!

Hey Edena,
Another excellent post on your part.

To be honest, I've not much to say because it seems to have been said before I even got here.

So, I'll keep it short.

I agree with whomever said that heroism is an issue of player and character, rather than system, but at the same time, I don't believe that this was truly what Edena meant. Simply using the term "D&D" can mean a myriad of things now... but that's neither here nor there.
To me, heroism is not the act in and of itself, but rather the intention behind that act. Why someone chooses to do something is perhaps more important than the decision to do it, or failing that, the act itself.
Does that even make sense?

From Edena to Reprisal

Gods, it's good to see you again, Reprisal!

Reprisal, I am embarrassed. I have forgotten the name of your character in the first IR. And that character, aside from Forrester the Humanoid Champion and King, is the most famous name in all of Realmspace.
What was his name? He was Speaker of the Parliament of the United Commonwealth of Toril, and leader of the Technomancy prior to that. A cathedral stands now above his tomb, and the Church of Mercy - hundreds of millions strong - canonized him long ago, and in his memory they strive for peace, unity, good-will and the other ideals he fought for.

And incidentally, these words (above) answer your post.
Yes, heroism is about intention. To be blunt, anyone can try something foolish. However, there are those who try what is perceived as foolish, but they have their motivations ... and these are the figures that have changed the world. (Jonas Salk deliberately infected himself with AIDS, trying to find a cure for it. This is the man who halted Polio. I would never call this man a fool, and I think the term heroic can be applied to this person.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Reprisal again

Reprisal posted

Hey Edena,

I'd like to thank you for those kind words you've already said about the way I played Iain Payne during the first and second IRs. They really made my day when I read them, so thanks!

Comment

Yes! Ian Payne, that was his name.
Speaker of Parliament Ian Payne, in the United Commonwealth.

By the way, admittedly few elves (other than the former elves of Evermeet, who are Forrester's people now) are willing to join the Church of Mercy, or remember Ian Payne well.
For although Ian Payne did great things, the elves remember he refused to aid Evereska against Forrester, or to save Evermeet when it was besieged.
The elves of Evermeet, are too busy enjoying the company of their humanoid brethren to be involved with the Church. (After all, the Humanoids are all hustle and bustle, or busy living it up, or engaging in wild sports and athletic endeavors, in the IR Forgotten Realms. There is no time for the slow, solemn ceremonies of the Church of Mercy.)


Reprisal posted

I've always wanted to run a Kalamar Industrial Revolution, but I've never known if anyone was interested in it... Over the year and a bit that I've owned Kalamar, it would seem that I now have a level of comprehension approaching that of your own of Faerun or Oerth in regards to Kalamar.

Comment

I've never played in Kalamar. I know nothing about it. But I'm sure that if you ran an IR (in Kalamar or elsewhere) it would be a good game, Reprisal.
Why not give it a try? Forrester may be mad at me, but he isn't mad at you. And maybe people would take an interest.
I know that you played in a very intensive, serious, and philosophical manner. I think any IR you ran would be a philosophically deep, story rich scenario. Something people would want to be a part of.

Posted

I'd love to run it, but I think such an endeavour may be limited by the degree of familiarity others might (not) have with the setting. That and the sheer time it would take, I'd have to do the bulk of it before and during Spring Break since the time afterwards would demand to be used for the essays I have to write for my classes...

Comment

Understood (sighs). I know your time is limited ... it was an honor you gave so much of it to the IR. The gift of time is a large gift. Thank you, Reprisal (and thanks, to the rest of you.)
Although if Kalamar has elves, dwarves, halflings, and - of course! - gnomes, I think everyone will understand that.

Posted

Playing in another IR would be most fulfilling, especially since it's not as work-intensive as running such an event.

Comment

Wanna bet? I hope you're wrong ... the IRs were all time intensive for me.

Posted

I think, this time, I might take the other side of the debate... I'm not entirely certain, since I'm fairly liberal (in the economic sense) in my day-to-day, it might be difficult to try to argue for things that I personally don't believe to be necessarily true... Still, it's a thought, and as ever, the possibilities are endless.

Comment

Hey, let your imagination run free, and do what is comfortable to you!
I fear we sorta messed up the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, in the First IR (as stated by someone early in that IR: We have totally fried the setting.)

(chuckles)

Kender on Toril. The elves of Evermeet the willing subjects of King Forrester the humanoid, mating and cavorting with orcs, bugbears, kobolds, and the others.
Gnomes running amok, energy grids criss-crossing Toril, skyscrapers rising to the heavens, the earth shaking with the force of mining, sky-roads and flying vehicles roaring over Faerun ...
Illithid walking freely amongst humans and dwarves, drow and svirfneblin giving each other classes on Underdark history, beholders and neogi arguing over bills pending in the Senate of the UC ...
A tropical, verdant world, from pole to pole. A green sky, under an enlarged sun of brilliant yellow surrounded by great red, orange, and yellow clouds and streamers (it has STILL not completely settled down ... the Chaos Wave almost undid the Sun, and such celestial objects take a while to calm down) ...

Yeah, it is a different Toril than it once was.

Oerth, Mystara, Athas, they have all changed too (they have finally restored Oerth's moon Celuna. It wasn't easy, but the Red Goo casing is gone now. Anabstercorian's great Ring City is visible from Oerth's surface, a glorious circlet of pearly light surrounding Oerth's sun.)

(sighs in remembrance)

Those were the days.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Tokiwong

Tokiwong posted:

For some reason i don't see anything wrong with a Paladin cutting down a known evil foe in a less then heroci way, I mean, does being heroic mean you have to give up the tacical advantage? It all depends on the style, and the focus of the character...
If Bob the Paladin decides to sneak in and slay the Red Dragon in its sleep I say more power to him, does not mean he is wrong for it, each Paladin is an individual. While if Lisa the Paladin stomps up to the same dragon and openly challenges it and all more power to her, it is all a matter of style.
Course I don't mind Paladins being harsh, there is difference bewteen being Good and being stupid, course I may be in the minority.

Comment

Hey there, Tokiwong!
By the way, I see from your info that you live in Oklahoma. The Red River Valley there is spectacular (everyone, imagine dirt roads. Now, imagine dirt roads that are a vivid, almost blood, red. So red and vivid they shine in the moonlight amidst the darkened fields. All of southern Oklahoma is like that.)
The Red River would be spectacular, if it had not dried up (which it did. I saw it for myself. A jaw dropper, this drought we are having in America.)

In my post above, I talked about my other paladin, Anora.
In Anora, you have a paladin who is ruthless in manners of killing, but highly principalled concerning the matter of war.
She will behead a helpless, chained captive, fire poisoned arrows at a charging man, or use a Death Spell on a horde of attacking orcs.
She will even torture a prisoner for information.
She will not, however, harm an innocent. If a village is infected with a disease, she will go there and help the people. If an orc (or a drow, or even an illithid) came to talk, she would carry on a friendly conversation. If a kender showed up, and others wanted to kill it, she would exercise understanding, patience, and tolerance - she would stop the killing if possible.

She is not at all like Osilovar.
He would faint at the notion of poison, killing the helpless, torture, and the like.
However, his radical charges, horn blowing, and fell deeds in battle, are the stuff of Arthurian Knights.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Xarlen

Xarlen posted:

Xarlen
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 2809

Edena, I must say, that I would love to have you in my game. I feel that everyone has said how I feel pretty much: it's about the players, not the system. So I won't say it.
The campaign that is about to go into Hiatus is a 'Foresnic Dungeneer'; they havn't done much heroics. Of course, a lot of situations have required stealth, secrecy, and mental prowess; a murder mystery, for instance.
But I am beginning a new campaign that I WANT to have Heros. I WANT things of Legend. I am working to make it LotR style, and grand, and wonderful. How, I don't know. But I will.
And I'll also try to do this with my Supers campaign. I would highly suggest to you, Edena, that you might want to check out the Hero system (Fantasy Hero is coming out, too).
But, I say again. There would always be a place for you at my gaming table, real or electronical (I play online, at the moment), Edena, and anyone like you.

From Edena to Xarlen

Thank you! Thanks for the invitation!
My situation here at home is very unstable. I just came back online after a 2 month absence due to family trouble.
Hopefully I can stay around. If I can, I might be able to take up your invitation. Let me see what my situation is.
Regardless, though, about whether I can or cannot join your game, thanks for the invitation. I appreciate this.

 

[Reprisal]

Posted

Playing in another IR would be most fulfilling, especially since it's not as work-intensive as running such an event.

Comment

Wanna bet? I hope you're wrong ... the IRs were all time intensive for me.

Yes, but I meant that it was substantially less work to play in the IRs than it must have been to run an IR.



- Rep.