ICE and the ENnies

[2WS-Steve]

I do think it might be worthwhile to establish a few super-categories for core types of books, like campaign setting, rules supplement, or so on, and only allow products to be entered into one of these super-categories. The publisher could then nominate the category they want to be in, and the judges could talk with the publisher or perhaps overrule in the case of the category seeming wrong.

But none of the changes to what is a constantly evolving awards program strike me as so vitally necessary, nor are the existing policies so horribly corrupt, that they warrant public posturing about how companies will refuse to participate unless changes are made.

If you want to suggest changes, just go ahead and do so. Plenty of people already have and many of those changes have been listened to over the years.

 

[kingpaul]

not the whole product like the marketing categories of Best Adventure Module and Best Campaign Setting and so forth.

But why do you think a product can't be both a setting and an adventure? Why do you feel that Shackled City was such a bad decision? If a product fits in more than one category, why can't it compete in more than one category?

2) The ENnies are not an industry wide award, they are a d20 award that happens to allow other games to be looked at. There is no way to avoid this, not so long as the ENnies refuse to sever their ties with EN World.

But the ENnies are hosted by ENWorld. Why is this bad? I've read your further posts, and others' comments, but I'm still lost as to why a ENWorld hosting the ENnies are bad.

 

[SteveC]

To put it mildly, I am flabbergasted at this problem.

I am coming to this situation being a longtime ICE fan (back to V1 of Arms Law) and as a longtime resident on ENWorld. I vote on the ENnies every year, and have enjoyed their growth and development considerably. I was surprised at some of the choices last year, but I think that represents the fact that the RPG industry doesn't always agree with me on what the best products are.

But I'm surprised at the attitude that the ENnies and ENWorld in general are just about D20 products. The D20 market is almost nonexistent at this point, and we had a non D20 product (Shadowrun) win the top honor last year. What's the problem? I own Shadowrun 4, and I don't see a huge crossover market between it and D20. What I do know, is that Shadowrun has a serious fanbase, and that fanbase was motivated to come out and vote for their favorite game. That's about it.

As far as Shackled City, I can see the concern at the game getting two awards, but it won those awards based on popular vote. Is the award somehow tainted because it was a D&D adventure, and most ENWorlders play D&D? To my mind, no, it wasn't, because almost everyone who plays RPGs is familiar with D&D. Not everyone loves it, of course, and the ENnies were discussed heavily over at RPGNet, which can hardly be called D&D friendly. Many people came over to vote based on those discussions. Why did Shackled City win? Because people thought it was the best product in both categories, and that's it. Did it get a leg up because it was a D&D game? Of course it did, but that's because D&D is far and away the most popular RPG in the world.

Now finally, the notion that all anyone plays here at ENWorld is D&D or some variant should also be addressed. It's pure nonsense. Most of the discussion here at ENWorld is about D&D, but I know many ENWorlders who play a huge variety of games. The times when I have referenced the Hero system, or Call of C'thuhlu (two of my favorite games) I have always had people chime in with responses. When I voted last year, I took that into account with my votes and certainly didn't vote only for D&D products. Heck, I didn't vote for the Shackled City even though I purchased it and am currently running it...I hadn't seen it by the time of voting last year.

So I'm really not sure where the complaint is...color me more than a little confused.

--Steve

 

[mearls]

I think the Ennies are, by far, the best awards available. They got there by working as a fan award first and foremost, not by letting publishers push them around. To be blunt, the Ennies are far more important to EN World and the 'net gaming community than any publisher. The publishers have the Origins Awards. Let the publishers run them. The Ennies should answer only to the fans and the volunteers who put hours of work into the process.

Every last publisher on Earth could hate the Ennies with the anger of a 1,000 suns, but if the fans care about them all that publisher hate is pointless. Fans decide which awards are important, not publishers, just like fans decide which books sell and which ones rot in warehouses.

By the same token, if every publisher loved the Ennies but fans just didn't care, the awards would be utterly irrelevant.

So, to be a bit cruel to Tim, you can let ICE walk. You can't afford to let the fans walk. And, sorry to say to the guys at ICE, I don't exactly see an exodus of fans following them out the door.

Heck, WotC doesn't participate, and that hasn't slowed the awards' momentum. It's utterly bogus to claim that you need publishers involved to make the awards legit. The Ennies are fine without 800 lb. gorilla of RPGs involved. They'll be fine without anyone or everyone else.

And if no print publishers enter, the PDF segment is growing by leaps and bounds. Let the young, hungry, and innovative 'net outfits compete.

 

[mearls]

It is important to learn lessons about what happened with the Origins Awards. Unfortunately, any discussion of the OAs always brings out an endless litany of ill-informed bs by people who know nothing of their actual history and difficulties.

So true. That Robin Laws is just *full* of crap.

 

[eyebeams]

I think the Ennies are, by far, the best awards available. They got there by working as a fan award first and foremost, not by letting publishers push them around. To be blunt, the Ennies are far more important to EN World and the 'net gaming community than any publisher. The publishers have the Origins Awards. Let the publishers run them. The Ennies should answer only to the fans and the volunteers who put hours of work into the process.

Mike, you really have to stop acting like the ENnies is Fighting the Power. It's shepherded by a publishing company and a chunk of its past judges and administration are more "industry" than swaths of AGAAD.

Every last publisher on Earth could hate the Ennies with the anger of a 1,000 suns, but if the fans care about them all that publisher hate is pointless. Fans decide which awards are important, not publishers, just like fans decide which books sell and which ones rot in warehouses.

By the same token, if every publisher loved the Ennies but fans just didn't care, the awards would be utterly irrelevant.

Marketing shapes opinion. I know it appeals to people who want to yell to the skies, I AM A FREE MAN/WOMAN, to say otherwise, but it does matter.

Now I'm not sure about Tim's *specific* concerns. I thought the categories last year were a bit borked, but not unconscionably so.

 

[Cathix]

I think the Ennies are, by far, the best awards available. They got there by working as a fan award first and foremost, not by letting publishers push them around. To be blunt, the Ennies are far more important to EN World and the 'net gaming community than any publisher. The publishers have the Origins Awards. Let the publishers run them. The Ennies should answer only to the fans and the volunteers who put hours of work into the process.

Every last publisher on Earth could hate the Ennies with the anger of a 1,000 suns, but if the fans care about them all that publisher hate is pointless. Fans decide which awards are important, not publishers, just like fans decide which books sell and which ones rot in warehouses.

By the same token, if every publisher loved the Ennies but fans just didn't care, the awards would be utterly irrelevant.

So, to be a bit cruel to Tim, you can let ICE walk. You can't afford to let the fans walk. And, sorry to say to the guys at ICE, I don't exactly see an exodus of fans following them out the door.

Heck, WotC doesn't participate, and that hasn't slowed the awards' momentum. It's utterly bogus to claim that you need publishers involved to make the awards legit. The Ennies are fine without 800 lb. gorilla of RPGs involved. They'll be fine without anyone or everyone else.

And if no print publishers enter, the PDF segment is growing by leaps and bounds. Let the young, hungry, and innovative 'net outfits compete.

Put a smile on my face to read this, sir. Thanks.

 

[mearls]

Mike, you really have to stop acting like the ENnies is Fighting the Power. It's shepherded by a publishing company and a chunk of its past judges and administration are more "industry" than swaths of AGAAD.

Huh? The judges are voted in by the fans. EN World Publishing doesn't enter products, nor is it run by the same people. The award administrators have little say in who enters, aside from setting requirements. Voting is open to the public.

Publishers have the Origins Awards. If publishers want an award process that provides them with a significant say in how it's run, they can join the OAs. That's what the OAs are there for. If anything, the Origins Awards have taken a lot of steps toward fixing themselves. Now seems like a great time for a publisher or designer to step in and help out.

More importantly, what exactly would publisher input do to improve the Ennies? They have GenCon and one of the top Internet gaming sites behind them. What can a lone publisher do?

What does marketing have to do with the Ennies, in so far as determining their effect on gamers? The OAs had GAMA behind them, yet no one takes them seriously. The OAs take out ads in magazines and reach out to retailers, yet still they languish.

 

[Treebore]

Huh? The judges are voted in by the fans. EN World Publishing doesn't enter products, nor is it run by the same people. The award administrators have little say in who enters, aside from setting requirements. Voting is open to the public.

Publishers have the Origins Awards. If publishers want an award process that provides them with a significant say in how it's run, they can join the OAs. That's what the OAs are there for. If anything, the Origins Awards have taken a lot of steps toward fixing themselves. Now seems like a great time for a publisher or designer to step in and help out.

More importantly, what exactly would publisher input do to improve the Ennies? They have GenCon and one of the top Internet gaming sites behind them. What can a lone publisher do?

What does marketing have to do with the Ennies, in so far as determining their effect on gamers? The OAs had GAMA behind them, yet no one takes them seriously. The OAs take out ads in magazines and reach out to retailers, yet still they languish.

Aparently some people have convinced themselves that the judges have all been hand puppets of Morris. When I met them at GenCon I could have sworn they were all walking and talking under their own willpower.

I know I won't be ENWorlds, or any publishers, puppet. The only "influence" I am going to allow to influence me if I am fortunate enough to become one is the opinions of the fellow judges.

I agree that categories and rules could use a good look over, maybe even some rewriting.

However, the awards are totally fan controlled. They elect the judges, they vote which products are the best in which categories.

People can claim that it is all rigged because of ENWorld members, but if any rigging is done it is by the very people who refuse to participate in the voting process, not the people who actually vote.

Everyone is being actively encouraged to vote this year, whether an ENWorld member or not.
People who refuse to participate are the only serious "problem" the ENNIE's have.

If people really want the ENNIE's to truly be an "industry" award then they had better get involved. OTherwise it will continue to be primarily "ENWorlders" who influence the outcome of the awards, and therefore influence the market far more than the "silent people" who refused to vote/participate.

 

[eyebeams]

Huh? The judges are voted in by the fans. EN World Publishing doesn't enter products, nor is it run by the same people. The award administrators have little say in who enters, aside from setting requirements. Voting is open to the public.

The guy who popped in on this thread to remind everyone that he owns the awads and can do whatever he likes with them is presumably the same Morrus that's here. I highly doubt a Clone Saga or Bizarro Morrus is involved.

Publishers have the Origins Awards. If publishers want an award process that provides them with a significant say in how it's run, they can join the OAs. That's what the OAs are there for. If anything, the Origins Awards have taken a lot of steps toward fixing themselves. Now seems like a great time for a publisher or designer to step in and help out.

Uh, that's not how the OAs works. You talk like some publishers get together in a cabal or something, but the OA process has just as much fan participation. Nominees are chosen by gamers and selected by academy folks (except for Game of the Year). Compare this to judges selecting ENnies noms who are voted on by fans. Tomato, frickin' tomahto.

I mean, seriously, Mike. I don't even like the OAs (remember how I called them meaningless in '06?) and my work won an ENnie last year, but I'm just not buying the way you're framing it.

As for who "messed up" the OAs, the first problem with them is that they cover a bunch of small markets, one or two large markets and pretend they're all the same market. The second problem and third problems I'm aware of would increase the temperature of the discussion here by quite a bit, so I'll avoid them.

More importantly, what exactly would publisher input do to improve the Ennies? They have GenCon and one of the top Internet gaming sites behind them. What can a lone publisher do?

Apparently a lone publisher was sufficient to make Tim Dugger and ICE wash their hands of the awards, with said publisher responding with words to the effect of, "It's mine and I don't care what you think." But that happens to be the publisher already associated with the ENnies -- which is kind of my point. The ENnies are not a noble fan pursuit. They're an annex for a publisher and his site. There's nothing much wrong with this if you're going to be honest about it. If you get pretenses about the ENnies sticking it to the man or something, that's just wacky.

(Now what Morrus said -- it's fine. Morrus made his choice and Tim made his. But even influence for the right reasons is influence.)

What does marketing have to do with the Ennies, in so far as determining their effect on gamers? The OAs had GAMA behind them, yet no one takes them seriously. The OAs take out ads in magazines and reach out to retailers, yet still they languish.

See above. The ENnies are deliberately associated with this site and as Morrus says, will always be so. This obviously has the effect of centering voting and fan action on the opinions on this site. It's marketing.

Again, it of itself, there's nothing wrong with this, but framing it as some kind of populist triumph is disingenuous at best. The primary virtues of the ENnies are that they only cover RPGs and they're linked to this community. Everybody knows that the OAs' web presence sucked, because you just can't have a website run for the sake of one smallish banquet a year. It's nonsensical. That's an excellent reason why they can't migrate from here.