Idea for a genuinely horrifying horror campaign...

[Bill Zebub]

Spot on, @Dannyalcatraz.

If someone is playing a Marshall in pursuit of criminals, how does this stay relevant when beasts from the Far Realms invade the town?

Also, the character concept "a Marshall in pursuit of criminals" describes what they expect to be doing in the campaign (which they might still be doing, when things get Weird) but the traits/abilities the player chooses for that concept are different. That might include leadership, nerves, investigation, toughness, diplomacy, etc. And those things still play an important role when the world goes all Lovecraft (or Gothic, or Voodoo) on them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Besides my suggestion about using a toolkit system, I want to ask: do you have an idea of what kind of horror tales you want to tell in this? Zombie plague? Lovecraftian? Native American rituals calling up spirits to rid their lands of invading white men?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Besides my suggestion about using a toolkit system, I want to ask: do you have an idea of what kind of horror tales you want to tell in this? Zombie plague? Lovecraftian? Native American rituals calling up spirits to rid their lands of invading white men?

Well, as I said, I don't think I personally am going to actually do this. I was really just ideating on something that I think could be fun. Mostly because I really miss that feeling, when I first started playing D&D, of surprise and wonderment. It just doesn't exist anymore; I know how RPGs work, and I know what to expect. Even as a player, the experience is more like that of an author writing a book, or a director making a film, rather than that of the audience. So this was an idea of how to bring back that old feeling.

And, I have to admit, the negative reactions I got in this thread make me think that not only are other veteran gamers in the same boat, but they've also completely forgotten about what it originally felt like. Like Robin Williams playing a middle-aged Peter Pan in "Hook" who can't even remember who he used to be. The wonder is gone, and they don't want surprises they want to be in their comfort zone of being expert gamers.

So, no, I didn't have a specific idea of which flavor of horror genre to use.

I mean, it doesn't even have to start in the Old West. It could be any non-magical, non-supernatural genre. Pirates, Spies, "Twilight 2000"? The only real goal is that the players, without even realizing it, try to find mundane explanations, so that when the reality hits them it's truly a shock.

(I'll add that I'm really not a fan of toolkit RPGs. I tend to most appreciate systems that have been designed from the ground up to support specific genres/settings.)

 

[J.Quondam]

Well, as I said, I don't think I personally am going to actually do this. I was really just ideating on something that I think could be fun. Mostly because I really miss that feeling, when I first started playing D&D, of surprise and wonderment. It just doesn't exist anymore; I know how RPGs work, and I know what to expect. Even as a player, the experience is more like that of an author writing a book, or a director making a film, rather than that of the audience. So this was an idea of how to bring back that old feeling.

And, I have to admit, the negative reactions I got in this thread make me think that not only are other veteran gamers in the same boat, but they've also completely forgotten about what it originally felt like. Like Robin Williams playing a middle-aged Peter Pan in "Hook" who can't even remember who he used to be. The wonder is gone, and they don't want surprises they want to be in their comfort zone of being expert gamers.

Man, this really strikes a chord.

I mean, I understand that a surprise twist can be off-putting, especially given limited time to play and given systems with a lot of upfront investment in character concept/build. (I'm like that sometimes, or used to be.) I'd say go with Deadlands or something, but that gives the twist away; whereas something like Aces & Eights (I've never played it) doesn't seem to leave a lot of room to implement a twist. So maybe the best bet would be to just use a fairly lightweight system with fairly quick char gen? But generally, I'd hope that it would be enough to tell the group, "Hey, let's not take this too seriously; let's trust each other, roll with the punches, and just enjoy!"

If it's any consolation, when you posted this thread a few days ago, it got me thinking, too. I had been looking back over Boot Hill recently anyway, just for fun. But now it's got me thinking about trying something X-Files-ish with it, or "Werewolves at the O-K Corral", or a shoggoth marauding prospectors in a gold mine. Or something, who knows?

Anyway, I hope you manage to pull it off. Sounds like good fun!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'll add that I'm really not a fan of toolkit RPGs. I tend to most appreciate systems that have been designed from the ground up to support specific genres/settings.

A dedicated system is usually going to do a better job of modeling the source material than a toolkit RPG, but as soon as you start genre-melding, the weaknesses of the dedicated system will start to show.

Imagine a long-established Western game suddenly dealing with an alien invasion. The power level of the alien warriors‘ arsenal might be so much greater than the Colts & Winchesters that the game models well that you might not have enough die at the table to resolve things by the rules as written.

I mean, think of a western sharpshooter who has to account for wind, leading their targets, recoil, etc., facing off against foes with energy weapons with laser sights. Range increments would be virtually meaningless- if they can see it, they can hit it.

(Just look at how easy it is for untrained jackasses to successfully hit moving aircraft with laser pointers.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

A dedicated system is usually going to do a better job of modeling the source material than a toolkit RPG, but as soon as you start genre-melding, the weaknesses of the dedicated system will start to show.

Imagine a long-established Western game suddenly dealing with an alien invasion. The power level of the alien warriors‘ arsenal might be so much greater than the Colts & Winchesters that the game models well that you might not have enough die at the table to resolve things by the rules as written.

I mean, think of a western sharpshooter who has to account for wind, leading their targets, recoil, etc., facing off against foes with energy weapons with laser sights. Range increments would be virtually meaningless- if they can see it, they can hit it.

(Just look at how easy it is for untrained jackasses to successfully hit moving aircraft with laser pointers.)

Yes, that's valid. It's not really designed from the ground up to support the genre if I'm changing the genre, right?

So maybe the best way to do it, solving for all variables except effort required, is to home brew an entire game, and then say, "Hey, gang, can we try the new Western game I've been designing?" That way:
a) It's built from the ground up to support the genre
b) They won't, and can't, know anything about it so the bait & switch (I'm co-opting that term) can't be anticipated. Unless they are on Enworld.

P.S. And I kind of like the idea that there's a "secret RPG" circulating privately on the Internet, GM to GM.

 

[prabe]

So maybe the best way to do it, solving for all variables except effort required, is to home brew an entire game, and then say, "Hey, gang, can we try the new Western game I've been designing?" That way:
a) It's built from the ground up to support the genre
b) They won't, and can't, know anything about it so the bait & switch (I'm co-opting that term) can't be anticipated. Unless they are on Enworld.

That sounds good, but if you have a player who asks "What kind of Western? Some sort of Weird West stuff, or what?" I kinda think you'd better be honest.

(And as a player I'd probably ask, just because depending on the kind of Western, I might find some character ideas will work better.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

That sounds good, but if you have a player who asks "What kind of Western? Some sort of Weird West stuff, or what?" I kinda think you'd better be honest.

(And as a player I'd probably ask, just because depending on the kind of Western, I might find some character ideas will work better.)

It may very well be that the only way to make this work is to invite relatively new/novice gamers, who just don't know to ask those questions. Veteran gamers may just not have the right mindset.

 

[J.Quondam]

A dedicated system is usually going to do a better job of modeling the source material than a toolkit RPG, but as soon as you start genre-melding, the weaknesses of the dedicated system will start to show.

Imagine a long-established Western game suddenly dealing with an alien invasion. The power level of the alien warriors‘ arsenal might be so much greater than the Colts & Winchesters that the game models well that you might not have enough die at the table to resolve things by the rules as written.

To be fair, a game of switcheroo doesn't have to involve a complete shift. It doesn't have to evolve into a full-scale alien invasion, when a suitable scenario might just be some bandits who found a couple nearly empty laser pistols on some desiccated alien corpses in some wreckage out in the desert. It doesn't have to be a zombie apocalypse, if it's just a crooked undertaker raising a lone zombie to scare folks and steal their stuff. And so forth. A western campaign where the supernatural is intermittent and mixed in with the mundane wouldn't have to require too many outre rulings beyond the scope of the regular rules. Seems to me like the main bone of contention might just be how focused the system is on pure gunfighting versus everything else.

 

[J.Quondam]

It may very well be that the only way to make this work is to invite relatively new/novice gamers, who just don't know to ask those questions. Veteran gamers may just not have the right mindset.

You might be right, but you're also right that it's very strange and sad that that's the case.

I mentioned earlier that I happened to be reading Boot Hill 3rd ed (1990). There's a very brief section about inserting weird elements into the game. A quote pulled from that:

No doubt role-players who sit down for an evening’s BOOT HILL® game expect something in the classical Western genre: cattle drives, gunfights, bank robberies, gold rushes. Imagine their surprise when they encounter .. . a vampire! Or a werewolf, or creatures from beneath the Earth. No, these things are not typically Western, but they can be the basis for a very enjoyable role-playing session. The sense of wonder that is so essential to adventure gaming is strongest when encountering the unknown or the unexpected.​

It was that last sentence that struck me, and reminded me of this thread. At least of 30 years ago, incorporating unexpected elements into a game was a perfectly normal way to do it among "veteran gamers."