D&D 5E Idea for a new feat - Martial Flexibility

[Barolo]

That was my response to Ganymede's suggestion for a feat that stacks Str and Dex bonuses.
--Ben

I think Ganymede suggested a cap for the sum.

 

[Barolo]

Yep. I see it now.

This feat just went from forgettable to broken.

So in you evaluation, not dumping an otherwise "dumpable" stat at character creation and then afterwards not picking two ABIs to maximize your attack and improve other aspects of the PC but instead picking only one feat that maximizes your attack but otherwise provides you with nothing else is by far superior? That is what I was trying to gauge when I proposed the feat. I didn't know attack maxing was perceived as absolutely more relevant than everything else a stat increase would offer, specially for dex builds.

Just to be clear, the feat does have almost exactly the effect pointed here:

It gains you a feat. You can start out with 16 dex and 14 str. You take a feat at 4th level and then take this at 6th. You have max stat and damage boost and an extra feat that you wouldn't have normally had..

One missing detail is that I proposed a minimum str 15 for the melee version, so the optimal melee build would be with str 16 and dex 14 instead. For a str melee hero it would mean investing some dex in character creation. Also, while you do end up with maximized attack and a feat, another hero with the exact same starting scores who decided to just bump str twice would end up with better saves, athletics bonus, throwing attack bonus, and carrying capacity.

A dex character would need a str 15 (usually seen as wasteful) and dex 15 (also wasteful) at char creation. Now they end up with maximized melee and an extra feat, but worse initiative, stealth, ranged attacks, saves, and maybe worse AC.

Again, I am not saying this all balances out, that is exactly what I am trying to evaluate. I am just pointing it is not a given, as it may seem at first glance, there are tradeoffs to be accounted for.

On the original post, I also suggested, but did not detail further, a equivalent feat for ranged attacks. It would look like this (both feat names suck, I am bad at naming things):

Powerful archer

Prerequisite: Dexterity 15 or higher, 6th level or higher

When you are wielding a bow (but not a crossbow) with which you are proficient, you can calculate you ranged attack and damage bonus as though your attacking attribute was the sum of your dexterity and strength -10 (maximum 20).



If a character with starting str and dex 15 buys both feats (minimum level 6 for the first, then 8 for both), they would have maxed both melee and ranged attacks, but at the cost of all else the attributes might give (including saves, skill checks). The prerequisite odd atributes was deliberate, to give them some relevance, and also to force otherwise suboptimal atribute selections (15 to both atributes is inferior to 16/14 in all other regards, but is the cheapest way to benefit from both feats simultaneously). In the end, a fighter would need two ABIs to maximize both ranged and melee, the same way a pure dex char needs using the baseline rules, and would even delay the maxing of one of the attack options for later. But now, a medium armor half-orc ranger wielding an axe and carrying a bow, or a elven warrior with a longsword (still benefiting of the racial bonus to dex) are more feasible.

 

[ccooke]

All the implementations of this idea seem to be fairly complex mechanically, and prone to minmaxing. I like the idea of flexibility, but I'd rather go with something like this:

Martial finesse

Pre-requisite: Str 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Strength and does not have the Heavy property, you may use whichever is highest of your Strength and Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls.



Martial power

Pre-requisite: Dex 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Dexterity and does not have the Loading property, you may use whichever is highest of your Dexterity and Strength for the attack and damage rolls.


The core idea is to allow flexibility, right? These two - while not quite as powerful as the originally suggested ideas - mean that so long as you're above average in the main stat for a weapon, you can use your other stat if it's higher. It's also fine if a variant human picks this up at level 1.

 

[mrpopstar]

All the implementations of this idea seem to be fairly complex mechanically, and prone to minmaxing. I like the idea of flexibility, but I'd rather go with something like this:

Martial finesse

Pre-requisite: Str 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Strength and does not have the Heavy property, you may use whichever is highest of your Strength and Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls.



Martial power

Pre-requisite: Dex 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Dexterity and does not have the Loading property, you may use whichever is highest of your Dexterity and Strength for the attack and damage rolls.


The core isea is to allow flexibility, right? These two - while not quite as powerful as the originally suggested ideas - mean that so long as you're above average in the main stat for a weapon, you can use your other stat if it's higher. It's also fine if a variant human picks this up at level 1.

Those are awesome!

 

[77IM]

Master of Arms

Riffing on this, here's how I'd do it.

Combat Expertise
Requirements: Strength 13+ or Dexterity 13+
Through intense training or hard-won experience, you've learned to fight through skill and cunning, rather than relying on your natural talents. This confers the following benefits:

• You become proficient in all simple weapons.
• When you take the Dodge action, you may use your bonus action to make a single weapon attack with a -5 penalty.
• When you make a weapon attack with a weapon with which you are proficient, you may choose not to add your ability modifier to the attack roll, and instead add twice your proficiency modifier to the attack roll. Your damage roll uses your normal ability modifier.

The name is a reference to both 3.5 "Combat Expertise" feat, and the 5E "Expertise" feature. The Dodge thing is also a throwback to 3E, and provides a benefit to characters even if they have a good ability modifier. It MAY be grossly overpowered; I rarely see characters take the Dodge action, but maybe they would if they could still attack at -5? In general I think most feats are underpowered so I'm erring on the side of "better than +1 to all attacks and damage."

The simple weapons thing is just a freebie for wizards and sorcerers (it's not really a power-up since they already have access to staffs and light crossbows, which are really good simple weapons).

 

[77IM]

I just had a brilliant brainstorm. Here's another alternative. Can you spot the change.

Combat Expertise
Requirements: Strength 13+ or Dexterity 13+
Through intense training or hard-won experience, you've learned to fight through skill and cunning, rather than relying on your natural talents. This confers the following benefits:

• You become proficient in all simple weapons.
• When you take the Dodge action, you may use your bonus action to make a single weapon attack with a -5 penalty.
• When you make a weapon attack with a weapon with which you are proficient, you may choose to add your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier to the attack roll, instead of the normal ability modifier. Your damage roll uses the normal ability modifier.

This still encourages characters to max a stat, but allows them to pick a non-traditional stat, allowing for very smart or wise warriors. I didn't include Charisma because it doesn't make any sense to me how that would work, and also because two of the major edge-cases for feats like this are valor bards and blade-pact warlocks. Excluding Charisma reduces the possibility that this feat overpowers those classes.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yes, it is mostly a limitation of mine. D&D has most often been a simplified system, it is not an attempt at simulation and providing fidelity in in-game terms and real-life ones. It is just that it is hardwired in the str the amount of load one can carry, which is totally fine given the overall system complexity (or lack of) but sometimes it is harder for me to dissociate extremely high str with piles of muscles.

You gotta get that outta your hear. Strength in D&D models a more rounded athletics prowess. For one, body building (what you imagine) builds more bulkiness than it does effective strength, and second of all strength training designed for lifting/pulling breaks D&Ds 20 cap. (For example, the guy who plays the Mountain has carried 1400 pounds. A 20 strength can carry 600 pounds.)

I assume the cap is not based on the limits of human achievement, but the limit of effective specialisation an adventurer would have before they become worse at their job, rather than better. (Again, D&D strength models more rounded athleticism than body building or power lifting training which are the cause of the hulkiness you imagine.)

Definitely more Bruce Lee.

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app

 

[Igfig]

Martial finesse

Pre-requisite: Str 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Strength and does not have the Heavy property, you may use whichever is highest of your Strength and Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls.


Martial power

Pre-requisite: Dex 13

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1 point (to a maximum of 20)
When you attack with a weapon that uses Dexterity and does not have the Loading property, you may use whichever is highest of your Dexterity and Strength for the attack and damage rolls.

The problem with these is that it still doesn't permit for people to have balanced ability scores. Like, if you have Str 16 and Dex 16, you're still only getting a +3 to your attack rolls when you could have been getting a +5.

I would suggest a sort of hybrid of the sum-of-ability-mods and double-proficiency-modifier methods. Something like "When making an attack, you may add both your Strength and Dexterity modifier to the attack and damage rolls. The total of these two modifiers cannot exceed your proficiency bonus."

This resolves the "start with a +5 bonus" issue of the sum-of-ability-mods method. The "end with a +6 bonus" issue of the double-proficiency-modifier method is still around, but +1 to attacks while you're epic tier is pretty reasonable for half a feat.

 

[Barolo]

You gotta get that outta your hear. Strength in D&D models a more rounded athletics prowess. For one, body building (what you imagine) builds more bulkiness than it does effective strength, and second of all strength training designed for lifting/pulling breaks D&Ds 20 cap. (For example, the guy who plays the Mountain has carried 1400 pounds. A 20 strength can carry 600 pounds.)

I assume the cap is not based on the limits of human achievement, but the limit of effective specialisation an adventurer would have before they become worse at their job, rather than better. (Again, D&D strength models more rounded athleticism than body building or power lifting training which are the cause of the hulkiness you imagine.)

Definitely more Bruce Lee.

Sent from my LG-D852 using EN World mobile app

Yes, that's exactly why I pointed out earlier this is a limitation of mine, not anything wrong in the system.

Still, I feel like even though there are so far no options that really motivate players to spread scores, the game has design space for more balanced heroes to be competitive with the focused ones, it is just that this path is yet to be explored, and I was trying to propose something to that regard.

 

[Barolo]

The problem with these is that it still doesn't permit for people to have balanced ability scores. Like, if you have Str 16 and Dex 16, you're still only getting a +3 to your attack rolls when you could have been getting a +5.

I would suggest a sort of hybrid of the sum-of-ability-mods and double-proficiency-modifier methods. Something like "When making an attack, you may add both your Strength and Dexterity modifier to the attack and damage rolls. The total of these two modifiers cannot exceed your proficiency bonus."

This resolves the "start with a +5 bonus" issue of the sum-of-ability-mods method. The "end with a +6 bonus" issue of the double-proficiency-modifier method is still around, but +1 to attacks while you're epic tier is pretty reasonable for half a feat.

I am really glad that you managed to get my initial intent, as it seems to have been lost somehow, throughout the thread. Your suggestion is really solid, as it creates a path to allow for a more balanced hero to be competitive with their focused counterparts, is overall simpler in design than what I was suggesting earlier and even avoids boring wording related to level limitations on the feat. The interesting perk is that, by agreeing on taking a slower path towards optimal attack bonus, the player will be rewarded at epic levels with a slight boost.

I really liked it, I will suggest it to my players and see how they feel about it. Thank you very much for the contribution, and for the earlier posters who seeded the concepts that were put together here.