Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[Elf Witch]

No, it's not solved, because the Vancian caster is still driving everyone to a [small number of] encounter per day and then forcing a rest so that he can survive the expected wandering monsters.

The problem you're trying to solve is "Vancian caster resource expenditure forcing a 15-minute adventuring day," and now you've just forced it to happen from the other side: instead of running themselves dry quickly and then forcing a rest, they run themselves to minimum required to safely rest and then force a rest.

He is only driving it if the DM and the rest of the party allow him to do so. In the games I play in the rest of the party would say suck it up we are not stopping after just 15 minutes.

Pacing is part of the DMs job in his tool chest he has wandering monsters and other tools to control the pace of a game.

Maybe I have been lucky and I play with players and DMs who realize that the whole world does not stop just because the PCs do.

Let them nova and keep the game running and eventually they will either learn to stop doing it or they will still nova and go on using crossbows and throwing vials of acid.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

This is one thing that drives me kind of nuts. Because some DMs can't run a game that stops wizards from going nova and then demanding rest we need more rules added on to fix this error in DMing.

How about instead of changing Vancian magic and making the rest of us who like it and enjoy how it works and have so for some 30 years you have an optional system that can be added to the game.

Or do what DMs have been doing for years house rule the fix so it works for your group.

I'm going to make the same response here that I make in threads where people argue about whether wizards are "supposed to be" more powerful at high levels than fighters: it's difficult to design rules that are balanced, and very easy to create rules that UNbalance the system. So since we're paying WOTC money for their game-designing skillz, they should work to make the system balanced - in this case, by making minor adjustments to the Vancian system - and do so in such a way that DMs who prefer an UNbalanced game can easily houserule things otherwise.

The rule I'm suggesting has the benefit of being very, very easily ignored if you want an "old school" feel, just like Backgrounds and Themes. I think it might also have the benefit of addressing a common complaint about Vancian casters in a way that makes them more "group-friendly" (i.e. paced more like other classes) without greatly changing the "classic" Vancian style. That way, people like me who find Vancian casters a pain can happily play warlocks or barbarians or whatever and let our friends play wizards, without having to worry about some passive-agressive battle between them and the DM that results in a bunch of less-than-optimal encounters for the whole group (either because the wizard novas and makes us feel useless, or because we're stuck fighting a bunch of random encounters because the DM has to keep him in check).

Again, if you wish it wasn't there, you can take it out; if you wish it WAS there, granted, you've probably got a bratty wizard or an inexperienced DM, but wouldn't it be nice to have a game that was easier to keep balanced, by default?

I'm starting to think, BTW, that this idea won't ever gain much traction on message boards because just about anyone who DOES like Vancian casting likes it "the way Gygax intended," and everyone who doesn't like Vancian casting would rather just ditch or overhaul the whole system. The reason I suggest it is because I'm convinced Vancian wizards are here to stay in 5e, and I think it'd be in the system's best interest to make them play nicely with other classes even if the DM fails his real-life Diplomacy check.

 

[HeinorNY]

I didn't play 4E.
Wasn't the "15 minute wizard" a problem with all classes in 4E? What did prevent any class to go nova on the first encounter and then demand a rest to recover the daily powers for the next encounter?

Even in previous editions, any class that had an important daily ability could demand a rest to recover it before going further on the adventure. Really, I've seen Fighters going back to town after an encounter to rest so they would always fight with full HP. Are you sure it is a rules problem?

 

[pogre]

Even in previous editions, any class that had an important daily ability could demand a rest to recover it before going further on the adventure. Really, I've seen Fighters going back to town after an encounter to rest so they would always fight with full HP. Are you sure it is a rules problem?

I remember well with O-D&D during the early levels a lot of groups used hit and run tactics in the dungeon. The game had a little more adversarial DM/player vibe back then and throwing random encounters was just part of the game.

When PCs got to third level or so I can remember having debates on whether to head back to town or not because we were hitting unexplored areas of the dungeon. If we went back to town, we knew damn well we would have to slog back through monsters to get to the samepoint.

I don't think it's a solution to the problem for most, just another example of how groups were frequently encouraged to conserve resources to get as deep in the delve as they could. This was the days where most DMs had their one grand dungeon - very different from how the game has developed today.

Random encounters were absolutely part of the game mechanics back then and it was pretty effective at keeping magic users from going nova. You can dislike it and say, 'that's not for me." However, that does not make it bad game design.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

He is only driving it if the DM and the rest of the party allow him to do so.

How do you stop it without constant "You have 5 minutes to save the world; GO!" scenarios?

Any time the players can pick their direction and timing (which gets easier as the levels increase), you run the risk of the 15-minute-workday.

 

[Elf Witch]

I'm going to make the same response here that I make in threads where people argue about whether wizards are "supposed to be" more powerful at high levels than fighters: it's difficult to design rules that are balanced, and very easy to create rules that UNbalance the system. So since we're paying WOTC money for their game-designing skillz, they should work to make the system balanced - in this case, by making minor adjustments to the Vancian system - and do so in such a way that DMs who prefer an UNbalanced game can easily houserule things otherwise.

The rule I'm suggesting has the benefit of being very, very easily ignored if you want an "old school" feel, just like Backgrounds and Themes. I think it might also have the benefit of addressing a common complaint about Vancian casters in a way that makes them more "group-friendly" (i.e. paced more like other classes) without greatly changing the "classic" Vancian style. That way, people like me who find Vancian casters a pain can happily play warlocks or barbarians or whatever and let our friends play wizards, without having to worry about some passive-agressive battle between them and the DM that results in a bunch of less-than-optimal encounters for the whole group (either because the wizard novas and makes us feel useless, or because we're stuck fighting a bunch of random encounters because the DM has to keep him in check).

Again, if you wish it wasn't there, you can take it out; if you wish it WAS there, granted, you've probably got a bratty wizard or an inexperienced DM, but wouldn't it be nice to have a game that was easier to keep balanced, by default?

I'm starting to think, BTW, that this idea won't ever gain much traction on message boards because just about anyone who DOES like Vancian casting likes it "the way Gygax intended," and everyone who doesn't like Vancian casting would rather just ditch or overhaul the whole system. The reason I suggest it is because I'm convinced Vancian wizards are here to stay in 5e, and I think it'd be in the system's best interest to make them play nicely with other classes even if the DM fails his real-life Diplomacy check.

Put me in the category that likes vancian magic as it is. While I think 3E made some mistakes on ramping up the power mainly with cheap magic items I still enjoy playing wizards and DMing them.

Again I don't see the problem as a DM it is my job to craft encounters and I run my world in an organic fashion the world does not revolve around the PCs is they choose to take their sweet time to stop the BBEG he will use that time to make himself more powerful.

If the PCs want to rest after 15 minutes when they have cleared a couple of rooms then fine when they come back those rooms will need to be cleared again or they will find an enemy ready and waiting for them.

This is not picking on the PCs this is called using tactics.

As for random encounters my players know I roll for them every watch so they set watches and the castes try and save at least one spell just in case.

Going nova is bad tactics plain and simple unless there is no choice and if they don't you are looking at a TPK.

It is not just arcane magic but going nova on healing using it up just to make sure everyone is at full hit points when they were not that far down. It is resource management and part of the game, Regardless of what edition you play there will always be some form of resource management.

What you see as a bug I see as a tool. I have been known to make it hard for the party to get sleep because of noise and weird things happening it sucks for the casters but the mundanes get to shine because they don't need the sleep like casters do.

I think options are great it is why I have always enjoyed Unearthed Arcana and third party things to change things depending on campaigns. I think having an option on changing vancian magic is a wonderful idea.

I am not thrilled at making the traditional vanican way the option partly because it was around first and a lot of us love it and it is part of DnD roots.

 

[Elf Witch]

How do you stop it without constant "You have 5 minutes to save the world; GO!" scenarios?

Any time the players can pick their direction and timing (which gets easier as the levels increase), you run the risk of the 15-minute-workday.

One tool is using the ceremony to bring everlasting darkness to the world happens on the eclipse in 45 days but it is far from the only option.

Using good tactics is another way. What is going on while the PCs waste an entire day? I will give you an example of something that happened in my game. They party went into a stronghold of orcs and goblins. The battle was pretty fierce but the wizard went nova when he really did not need to. So they decided to leave rest up and come back tomorrow.

I let them and I let them get a full nights rest because I knew that they were in deep crap. They didn't stop and think that relief for those guards were going to come and find their dead and looted bodies.

When they came back the orcs and goblins were more prepared and it ended in a nasty almost TPK. The lesson they learned was if you still have healing and your mundane party members are okay keep going otherwise it gets harder to accomplish your goals.

Also when they are in wilderness and dangerous lands I roll for a random encounter all night long. So they know from experience that going nova is bad.

Now it is easier to go nova in a city setting where you can easily hide and get rest but again I look at what is going on when the PCs go nova and then hide in the middle of the day.

If you keep it varied the players if they have any kind of tactics at all learn that going nova is not always the best way to go.

Here is another way to handle it talk to your players and tell them that as DM you don't enjoy running 15 minute days and if they don't like that then find another DM who does not mind.

As a player I would soon get bored with a game that ran like this and I would either quit or start working against the party to make things more interesting.

This may be a play style issue but to me and my players part of the fun of playing a caster is being able to throw some cool magical effects around but also being creative when you are out of spells.

The only time we would ever quit after 15 minutes is if we were all so badly hurt and out of healing that it would be suicide to continue.

There are plenty of ways to handle the 15 minute day without changing the system.

But if this s not your play style then by all means find options that work better for your style of play.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are plenty of ways to handle the 15 minute day without changing the system.

My mantra since I was first exposed to the term has been "i've never seen the 15 minute work day in 30+ years in the hobby, covering 3 states, 5 cities, and dozens of DMs. It must be a playstyle thing, not a system thing."

And one of the biggest reasons I've never seen it is because it really is a playstyle thing. As you pointed out, going nova while killing the guards then taking a rest just means that the next shift will raise the alert. It's up to the party to decide where they will be when their guardpocalypse is discovered.

The world doesn't cease its movements because the party has. Just because the wizard is out of spells doesn't mean it's campfire & s'mores time. That just means that the party is going to have a rougher remainder of the day, and the wizard had better have a fully loaded Quiver of Ehlonna for his crossbow...

Result: casters almost never go nova. As I've stated before, it's not unusual for the guy I've been gaming with the most to have spells left at the end of the day. Gooooood spells.

Possible contributing factor: I have gamed with a LOT of servicemen, military dependents, and military history buffs who understand almost preternaturally the value of holding something in reserve.

 

[Minigiant]

The 5 Minute Workday is a playstyle issue brought to the surface by a system issue.

It is caused by/when:

The DM does not actively drain all of the PCs' resources equally.
OR
The Players don't attempt to spend their resources equally.

System issue: Vancian spells where not designed to last as long as the other many D&D resource... Hit Point
Playtest issue: The DM doesn't know how to force Vancian users' resources to sync up their spellcasting with nonvancian casters.


Explanation.

The wizard has 3 combat spells.
The cleric has 2 combat spells.
The fighter has 15 HP.


The game and DM both have to encourage the wizard to only cast a combat spell in combat when he or she predicts or sees the fighter will lose ~5 HP.

The game and DM both have to encourage the cleric to only cast a combat spell in combat when he or she predicts or sees the fighter will lose ~7 HP.

At which point... if the party runs into the 5 MWD, it is they own gang fault.

 

[Shadeydm]

AEDU changes the equation from:

PreNova: 100% power
PostNova: 20% power

... to ...:

PreNova: 100% power
PostNova: 80% power

... and therefore, theoretically, disincentivizes giving up after a few short encounters.

As in, AEDU isn't primarily supposed to stop nova-ing. It's supposed to stop the 15-minute-adventuring day by limiting the impact of nova-ing on your remaining resources.

Which did not change player desire to be at full strength, that was changed by the adventure/story so while theory craft is good stuff it remains only theory.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Er, actually, yeah, it is. If the problem was a Vancian caster blowing all their spells in one encounter (general implied definition of going nova) and you've shown and given them a reason not to do so then by the definition of the words "problem solved" yes, the problem was indeed solved.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a solution that doesn't immediately cause new problems?

Or, actually can be implemented easily in every campaign? Who is to say there is even a plausible reason for the PCs to have random encounters? If they ever get Teleport and a decent home, the last spell the Wizard casts will be Teleport.

 

[Sadras]

Most nova/at-will/encounter spell casting problems could be solved with a Fatigue/Risk mechanic. Encounter spells make less sense unless a Fatigue mechanic is in place. Why can't I have my mage casting one more spell, before passing out due to exhaustion, or have the hopeful cleric calling on the power of her God one more time to save her allies from death...before having raw Divine energies passing through her healing her party members while she suffers burns across her body and face.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is always a problem when the enemies are not reactive, or pro-active.

It is always a problem when the world stands still while the party rests.

Any battle that can be won via attrition is going to be easy. By keeping the opposition static, you've introduced (perhaps unwittingly) a situation in which the enemies are basically in a siege: they don't resupply, they don't re-equip, and it's only a matter of time before they are worn down.

This is why there's dozens of different ways to "recharge" your adventure if the party decides to take it slow.

The cause of the 15 minute workday isn't vancian magic. It's DMs who stop time whenever the party stops for a rest. And given the skill of most of the DMs on these boards, I don't think the 15 minute work day is something most of us have seen very much of.

 

[billd91]

If they ever get Teleport and a decent home, the last spell the Wizard casts will be Teleport.

And that produces its own complications for the PCs. It ties up the 9th level wizard's only 5th level spell for a getaway. The problem of getting back in against fortified defenses isn't solved at all until he can cast it twice. When the wizard can cast it twice, that's now 2 5th level spells tied up. And then 1 in 16 attempts can be expected to be seriously problematic, more if time pressure doesn't give the wizard an hour to study his new teleport-in landing zones. AND here's hoping he can take the whole party. He may not be able to.

For some wizards, that hassle may be worth it. That wizard ain't everybody.

 

[erleni]

I didn't play 4E.
Wasn't the "15 minute wizard" a problem with all classes in 4E? What did prevent any class to go nova on the first encounter and then demand a rest to recover the daily powers for the next encounter?

Even in previous editions, any class that had an important daily ability could demand a rest to recover it before going further on the adventure. Really, I've seen Fighters going back to town after an encounter to rest so they would always fight with full HP. Are you sure it is a rules problem?

The experience in our group is quite different. Our PCs normally don't use dailies unless we clearly see that encounter and at-wills powers cannot handle the encounter. So typically we hoard dailies through encounters until we face an encounter that is going south, either because the enemy is very dangerous or because we're really low on HP/surges. At that time usually we go into a daily nova to save our lives. Anyway, if after the nova we stiill have a reasonable number of HP/surges we usually go on.
The limiting factor we have seen is almost always HP/surges, while dailies are tipically an emergency button.
We once had a party made up by a Revenant Bleak Disciple Assassin, a Barbarian and a Shaman/Druid that had a pretty high level of THP generation and damage mitigation. During one adventuring day we faced thirteen combat encounters before going to rest and we didn't even care about when we spent our dailies. We just stopped when everybody was bloodied and the Shaman/Druid was the only one with a surge left.

 

[Minigiant]

It is always a problem when the enemies are not reactive, or pro-active.

It is always a problem when the world stands still while the party rests.

Any battle that can be won via attrition is going to be easy. By keeping the opposition static, you've introduced (perhaps unwittingly) a situation in which the enemies are basically in a siege: they don't resupply, they don't re-equip, and it's only a matter of time before they are worn down.

This is why there's dozens of different ways to "recharge" your adventure if the party decides to take it slow.

The cause of the 15 minute workday isn't vancian magic. It's DMs who stop time whenever the party stops for a rest. And given the skill of most of the DMs on these boards, I don't think the 15 minute work day is something most of us have seen very much of.

The problem is once you starts using Macguffins, Time limits, and No Safe havens, you have to keep doing it. Then it gets boring or stale when the party is always faced with "Continue or SOMEBODY DIES" situations.

Can't go anywhere without a kidnapee being soon sacrificed.

 

[HeinorNY]

The experience in our group is quite different. Our PCs normally don't use dailies unless we clearly see that encounter and at-wills powers cannot handle the encounter. So typically we hoard dailies through encounters until we face an encounter that is going south, either because the enemy is very dangerous or because we're really low on HP/surges. At that time usually we go into a daily nova to save our lives. Anyway, if after the nova we stiill have a reasonable number of HP/surges we usually go on.
The limiting factor we have seen is almost always HP/surges, while dailies are tipically an emergency button.
We once had a party made up by a Revenant Bleak Disciple Assassin, a Barbarian and a Shaman/Druid that had a pretty high level of THP generation and damage mitigation. During one adventuring day we faced thirteen combat encounters before going to rest and we didn't even care about when we spent our dailies. We just stopped when everybody was bloodied and the Shaman/Druid was the only one with a surge left.

I played every edition of D&D pretty much like that.
Except in 3E where the wizard, with Scribe Scroll at 1st level and a possible create wand and woundrous items later, never really needed to stop. The fighters and rogues went out of HP long before him.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is once you starts using Macguffins, Time limits, and No Safe havens, you have to keep doing it. Then it gets boring or stale when the party is always faced with "Continue or SOMEBODY DIES" situations.

Can't go anywhere without a kidnapee being soon sacrificed.

You don't have to use the same tactic(s) every time. Variety is spicy, and different circumstances will demand different responses.

But every time, you should consider what happens when the party rests, and how the enemies act during that rest.

Else there is no real long-term challenge.

 

[Aenghus]

I certainly observed the "15 minute" effect in 3rd edition at higher levels, particularly when the party had access to enough teleport to move the whole party.

But it was more associated with long lists of pre-cast buff spells than novaing, though the result was the same - the spellcasters quickly ran out of spell slots.

The sequence was:

• the spellcaster players in the party accumulated an ever increasing list of precast buff spells that massively increased the spike damage and defenses of the party for a limited time.
  
• while so boosted the party can crush standard combat encounters
  
• I as referee boost the difficulty of the average encounter somewhat, and major encounters significantly to compensate
  
• The party now will be wiped out by some encounters if not buffed, so feel driven to stop when the buffs run out.
  
• Some of the attacks the buffing spells defend against are so deadly that just not casting the defensive buff isn't an option for the non-suicidal PC if it's available.

I like high level play, both running for it and playing. For me the best way to reduce this problem is to limit buffing spells in some way. I never want to see players layered with 10 or more pre-buff spells on them ever again.

I also agree with the limits on long distance teleport that 4e introduced - teleports can only arrive at pre-prepared areas. It makes teleport much less broken and avoids having to mangle lots of scenarios to make certain plotlines fit.

I don't want to make lots of houserules to arrive at a usable system, and I prefer using the system as written whenever possible.

The other issue, is that of player class preference. Lots of people choose spellcasters for flavour reasons, not to carefully ration out spells over an entire adventuring day. Spellcasting classes don't have "Warning: this class works with only one style of play, deviate from this single approved style at your peril" stamped on them.

While I can advise players as to the strengths and weakness of various classes, , and push them towards classes I think would suit them, it smacks of elitism to ban people from playing certain classes because of their play style. Having a system that allows them to play the class they want without a resulting disappointing game experience for the group concerned would be great.

 

[ExploderWizard]

How do you stop it without constant "You have 5 minutes to save the world; GO!" scenarios?

Any time the players can pick their direction and timing (which gets easier as the levels increase), you run the risk of the 15-minute-workday.

The 15 minute workday is, if anything at all, a product of an artificial challenge structure. If adventures are structured as a series of difficult hurdles custom tailored to torture- test the capabilities of a party of X level assuming Y resources, then players will learn that they need to unload with the big stuff every time.

More organic, less scripted adventures will allow players to base resource usage on need instead of going nova as a reflex survival mechanism.