Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[Harlock]

The power level of a daily caster is directly proportional to how many combats the party is expected to face between rests, and that number changes depending on the group and the DM. So sure, you can toss random encounters at the group and they'll learn to stretch out their spells over 3-4 encounters. But Bob down the street is letting his casters blow their loads and rest every encounter. And Gary in Ohio won't let his players rest until they've gotten through 6-8 encounters.

So the PROBLEM is that in each of these groups, the wizard's power level is vastly different. Bob's wizard is overpowered, your wizard is probably appropriate to the character level, and Gary's is underpowered.

So either you have to tell Bob and Gary that they're doing it wrong (badwrongfun), or you have to adjust the game mechanics to encourage (or force) casters to spread out their spells an appropriate amount.

Um, if Bob is happy letting his party rest after every encounter, he can continue to do so. Obviously, he's not bothered by Novas if that is what he is allowing. If he is, he can follow my advice form above. And, if Gary isn't "letting" his players rest... yeah, he's a DM that needs help and he's likely to find out when his players keep dying and tell him his game isn't fun for them. Again, the problem will work itself out.

 

[Yora]

The XPH has it right and as soon as I have read through the PHB once I'll be converting all the spellcasting classes.
Or maybe earlier, depending on the final scale of playtest material.

 

[Fifth Element]

Vancian caster novas and demands a rest? Hello wandering monster table. Eventually a connection will be made or they'll simply learn to save some spells for later.

This is a very heavy-handed and gamist approach. Players will begin to notice that the rate of wandering monsters jumps if they're resting because the caster's out of spells versus when they're resting because the party really needs to rest. It also assumes the party can't make it to a safe area to rest - wandering monsters are useless if there's a nearby town.

This is not a solution to someone who sees this as a serious issue. Many people don't think "it's not broken if the DM can fix it" is a good approach to game design.

 

[Fifth Element]

Um, if Bob is happy letting his party rest after every encounter, he can continue to do so. Obviously, he's not bothered by Novas if that is what he is allowing. If he is, he can follow my advice form above. And, if Gary isn't "letting" his players rest... yeah, he's a DM that needs help and he's likely to find out when his players keep dying and tell him his game isn't fun for them. Again, the problem will work itself out.

Or, you can try to make it so that people don't run into the problem in the first place.

5 bad sessions followed by 5 good sessions is not as good as 10 good sessions. Players shouldn't have to "earn" their fun.

 

[Harlock]

This is a very heavy-handed and gamist approach. Players will begin to notice that the rate of wandering monsters jumps if they're resting because the caster's out of spells versus when they're resting because the party really needs to rest. It also assumes the party can't make it to a safe area to rest - wandering monsters are useless if there's a nearby town.

This is not a solution to someone who sees this as a serious issue. Many people don't think "it's not broken if the DM can fix it" is a good approach to game design.

Heavy handed is a matter of opinion. If players notice, great, that's the point. Monsters have been known to raid or stumble into "safe" areas, so that's a complete fallacy. If someone feels this isn't a solution, they don't have to use it. Obviously, there are plenty of people that don't find this to be a problem in the first place. And, please, don't ascribe motives to my posts. This had nothing to do with game design or my feelings on it. I was merely offering up a simple solution for anyone who might want to give it a shot.

 

[Harlock]

Or, you can try to make it so that people don't run into the problem in the first place.

An admirable goal. But you see, this was a thread on keeping Vancian casters from Novaing, not a thread asking for a solution on preventing it in the first place.

5 bad sessions followed by 5 good sessions is not as good as 10 good sessions. Players shouldn't have to "earn" their fun.

No one said anything to the contrary. Are you the fun police? Some people can enjoy a bad session as well as a good one, depending on how you are defining good or bad in terms of roleplaying sessions.

 

[Fifth Element]

Heavy handed is a matter of opinion. If players notice, great, that's the point.

What I meant is that they'll notice the DM is forcing "wandering" monsters on them based on the reason they're resting. I would find that rather immersion-breaking. "The wizard would like to rest now, but we know that if we do we will be attacked." Even though we have no in-game reason to believe that.

And, please, don't ascribe motives to my posts. This had nothing to do with game design or my feelings on it.

That was a description of the type of solution, not your reason for giving it. Your proposal says "don't do anything to the game, just let the DM handle it." Some people call this the "Rule 0 Fallacy" - it's not a problem because I can fix it.

Ascribing motive would have been something like "You're saying that because you think players are too entitled these days and the DM needs to teach them to man up" or something like that. I neither said that nor do I believe it.

Edit: Also, try to leave drama from other unrelated threads out of it, eh?
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[dkyle]

How about true Vancian casting:

* Even the most powerful Wizards have only a few spell slots
* Spells are rememorized between adventures by returning to the Wizard's home library
* A "Wizard" is not a guy in a robe who is hopeless at pretty much anything but casting spells. He's a guy that's got plenty of mundane adventuring skills, and can handle a sword in a fight, but also can do some awesome magic things every once in a while.

 

[Fifth Element]

An admirable goal. But you see, this was a thread on keeping Vancian casters from Novaing, not a thread asking for a solution on preventing it in the first place.

I can't parse this at all. What does suggesting that the system prevent casters from Novaing not have to do with a thread about preventing casters from Novaing?

No one said anything to the contrary. Are you the fun police? Some people can enjoy a bad session as well as a good one, depending on how you are defining good or bad in terms of roleplaying sessions.

Your suggestion to someone who finds it a problem was "it will work itself out". By definition that means they have to suffer through the problem before it is worked out. If it takes any time at all to work itself out, then there's less fun being had by that person.

 

[Harlock]

What I meant is that they'll notice the DM is forcing "wandering" monsters on them based on the reason they're resting. I would find that rather immersion-breaking. "The wizard would like to rest now, but we know that if we do we will be attacked." Even though we have no in-game reason to believe that.


That was a description of the type of solution, not your reason for giving it. Your proposal says "don't do anything to the game, just let the DM handle it." Some people call this the "Rule 0 Fallacy" - it's not a problem because I can fix it.

Ascribing motive would have been something like "You're saying that because you think players are too entitled these days and the DM needs to teach them to man up" or something like that. I neither said that nor do I believe it.

You're not offering any solutions, just attacking mine. Got it. Calling it heavy handed, gamist, rule 0 fallacy is insulting and just because it isn't the solution you would choose doesn't mean others might. Of course, are you going to say its "badwrongfun", to quote from above?

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