log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 5E Idea that will most players will hate, but I think addresses a mechanical issue in game


log in or register to remove this ad

Mordhau

Adventurer
Isn't this the way most games used to do it?

Conceptually I don't have a problem with it but...

Casters are more focused on one ability - if they were multi-ability dependent as well it would even things out somewhat. (Say a different ability score for saving throws and spells known).

Dex is still better, because it covers armour class as well. This wouldn't be a problem if ASIs were removed, so the trade-off was within a range which didn't really change. (I would probably change ASIs to +1 to 3 different ability scores if doing this).
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.

Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.
There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot. If the players aren’t interested in playing risk-taking adventurers, you shouldn’t be playing a game about risk-taking adventurers.
Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something
Something something.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot. If the players aren’t interested in playing risk-taking adventurers, you shouldn’t be playing a game about risk-taking adventurers.
It not about happening a plot in mind. It's there not being a cohesive or coherent story because the characters die off or opt out. So the plot is just "finishing the adventure" like a board game because the PCs can't be involved as more than the most minor of side characters.

The main reason why PCs kept getting tougher is because the excuses to keep a player involved the a game after their PC dies, retires, or quits get more ludicrous over time. This makes player and DM investment wane and causes no shows and cancelled sessions.

For D&D, a game attempting to appeal to many, going too extreme on PC toughness, weapons combat, magic, monster uniqueness etc will cut off large swaths of the types of games it wishes to create and turn away aequal amount of current or potential fans.
 

They also find absurd the idea that character death is a natural part of the game.

Just look at how many Reddit threads we get every day with players complaining about their characters getting killed and even more threads with DMs asking for "help" to not TPK their parties with some published module.
Well yeah. Pretty much no invested DM wants a TPK in that situation in anything but the final climactic scene. TPKs are a hassle because they require assembling a completely new party of characters, getting them involved in the plot of the module without them getting the introduction that most modules are designed to start with etc. - And that is only the problems within the game. Players often like bringing their new characters in to an existing party with established members when their previous character died, but can be less interested in building up a new set of character interactions from scratch.

More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.
It is evident that you and Nefermandias have very different experiences of D&D players than many of us. Are either of you cognizant of a middle ground between "antagonistic DM kills characters for fun even though they often die to random chance anyway" and "characters have infinite plot armour"?

There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot.
Interesting. You're saying that you run your games purely as character-reactive sandboxes? No plot of events NPCs and other elements will happen unless reacting to what the characters do?
 

Nefermandias

Adventurer
More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.
"Be a fan of your players" makes me roll my eyes so hard every time I hear that.
 

Nefermandias

Adventurer
Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something
Death saves and saving throws in general are plot armor enough baked into the system. No need to go out of your way to give them even more.
Besides, sticking to the CR guidelines makes it almost impossible to kill the PCs anyway.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Death saves and saving throws in general are plot armor enough baked into the system. No need to go out of your way to give them even more.
Besides, sticking to the CR guidelines makes it almost impossible to kill the PCs anyway.
Like I said

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something

Some editions were at one extreme. Some editions were at the other.

I don't think any edition got the plot armor nor weapons ability score dependency in the sweet spot yet.
 

'cause they're invested. Why is that a bad thing??

We're FAR from the time where Bob the Fighter could die and be replaced in 5 seconds by his brother Bob II. Character generation takes a while, story is important to players and all that investment feels wasted if your character just die. Especially if its just because of a single bad roll.
You are making a blanket statement when you say "story is important to players". It is important to some players. Many of us travel with at least 2 chars ready to go in case the 1st one falls 20 feet though a trap door to a floor covered with spikes.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I always discuss lethality during session 0. I've never been a killer DM since death is pretty final in my campaign world. A TPK is pretty much the end of the campaign.

Thing is, one of my players (an old schooler like me) chatted with me about this after a session a little while ago. He said it was quite fun to have an ongoing campaign with characters that had so much long term interactions with each other.

So I don't see a lot of downside to not being a killer DM. PC death is never totally off the table, but it's been a while that I've actually killed off a PC despite coming very close a few times.

It's not that I think my players are delicate flowers, but death just ends a story. I don't think that makes for a better game for me or my players.
 

I always discuss lethality during session 0. I've never been a killer DM since death is pretty final in my campaign world. A TPK is pretty much the end of the campaign.

Thing is, one of my players (an old schooler like me) chatted with me about this after a session a little while ago. He said it was quite fun to have an ongoing campaign with characters that had so much long term interactions with each other.

So I don't see a lot of downside to not being a killer DM. PC death is never totally off the table, but it's been a while that I've actually killed off a PC despite coming very close a few times.

It's not that I think my players are delicate flowers, but death just ends a story. I don't think that makes for a better game for me or my players.
I had a player quit because I had a set of Wolves (which have Pack Tactics) focus on him. This char never went into even Death Saves over about 5 sessions...not once. But he felt my game was "too hard".

The only chars I have ever killed in the past 3 years were 3 out of 6 char party in one session because the players came up with an idiotic plan. (Split the party 3 ways going into what clearly was a trap).

But I am considered a "Killer DM" because of that, and often, chars do go into Death Saves.

So yes, more and more, I see players that are indeed "delicate flowers". A good player can whip up a char in about 10 minutes, sans backstory. But then they will invest 4 days into said backstory, and get very upset when the char is on the verge of death.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I had a player quit because I had a set of Wolves (which have Pack Tactics) focus on him. This char never went into even Death Saves over about 5 sessions...not once. But he felt my game was "too hard".

The only chars I have ever killed in the past 3 years were 3 out of 6 char party in one session because the players came up with an idiotic plan. (Split the party 3 ways going into what clearly was a trap).

But I am considered a "Killer DM" because of that, and often, chars do go into Death Saves.

So yes, more and more, I see players that are indeed "delicate flowers". A good player can whip up a char in about 10 minutes, sans backstory. But then they will invest 4 days into said backstory, and get very upset when the char is on the verge of death.
Wow. A “killer DM“ for the heresy of actually having monsters who...gasp...attack the PCs. How...precious.
 


Undrave

Hero
More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.
There's games out there where the PCs never die. There's shows out there where nobody ever dies. They both manage to be entertaining.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
So yes, more and more, I see players that are indeed "delicate flowers". A good player can whip up a char in about 10 minutes, sans backstory. But then they will invest 4 days into said backstory, and get very upset when the char is on the verge of death.
That is an exaggerated generalization of players. Some players like having a good narrative and an highly lethal game tends to have very poor narrative.
 

GreyLord

Hero
Do weight lifting...you ability to do other things increases tremendously.

People underestimate how BIG a difference strength makes to your ability to be mobile and able to do sports.

It helps in almost every arena of sports from endurance to speed to the ability for a ball player (Basketball, baseball, all do weights in upper levels because of this) to actually hit things or shoot things better.

TOO much weight is given onto dexterity (which, while good, can be almost useless without proper strength).
 

Scars Unseen

Adventurer
Do weight lifting...you ability to do other things increases tremendously.

People underestimate how BIG a difference strength makes to your ability to be mobile and able to do sports.

It helps in almost every arena of sports from endurance to speed to the ability for a ball player (Basketball, baseball, all do weights in upper levels because of this) to actually hit things or shoot things better.

TOO much weight is given onto dexterity (which, while good, can be almost useless without proper strength).
It's all too abstract for me to be bothered by those kind of inaccuracies. Honestly, if I was designing an RPG today, I wouldn't even track phys/ment stats like that. I'd just make the base assumption that every PC was generally competent in the things their character was designed around, and then have them take special traits where they were exceptionally so. So action oriented characters would be generally athletic, but then if a player wanted theirs to be known for being incredibly strong (e.g. Wulfgar from the Drizzt books), that would be something that could have a mechanical widget on their character sheet. Something like Fate's Aspects, but more specific and designed to be crunchier than Fate tends to be.
 



Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top