ideas for building a dragon killing druid (needed for backstory)

[Brother MacLaren]

Too bad that we are talkning about a 10th level druid, no?

Too bad indeed. Because I've just shown that despite the fact that dragons are vastly overpowered for their nominal CR, a druid of comparable CR is a match for it. Our 10th level druid is *supposed* to be facing the fight of his life against this dragon - a whole party of 10th-level character would have a hard time - and the druid still has a number of options that make victory at least plausible.

And antilife shell makes someone dragon proof? Not really. Sure the dragon can attack you with its natural weapons, but just watch the dragon playing golf with the druid using a large tree it ripped out of the earth.

If a DM really wants his dragons to wield weapons, why don't they always do so? Given the monster's +19 BAB, it would have four attacks with a Large greatsword, could use a magic weapon, and would apply 1.5 Str damage to all attacks. Would seem better than relying on natural attacks. Maybe all of my DMs in all of my games have been playing dragons wrong. Also, I don't think the dragon's 5' reach (Large Dragon is 5' with anything but the bite IIRC) is enough to get through the Antilife Shell (10' radius). An ogre with 10' reach has 10' reach with a greatclub. A dragon with 5' claw reach has 5' reach with a greatclub in its claw, no? Or is your dragon now using a reach weapon?

Even if the dragon just happens to know how Antilife Shell works, has the shoulder musculature to swing a Large greatclub with the same reach as an ogre, and can figure out quickly what to do, here's what my druid would do - go aerial and cast. Dragon gets hit with a spell (1), flies up to attack, finds it can't touch druid, gets hit with a spell (2), tries breath weapon and fails to hurt druid much, gets hit again (3), flies back down and grabs a conveniently large log (thereby fortunately not needing a full-round action to uproot it) and gets hit again (4), flies back to druid and attacks, getting hit again (5), manages to tag the druid once, who then promptly flies into a tree and disappears (maybe taking an AOO in the process depending on their relative positions at the end of previous round). Dragon has been hit by five spells by this time.

Now, I haven't postulated *any* magic items for the druid up to this point (an area where a PC druid would have the edge over a dragon). I see now that a few scrolls would be very useful for the 10th-level druid, but not absolutely necessary IMO.

 

[Storyteller01]

Okay then, we agree that a 10th Druid, if prepped and lucky, can take an Adult Back Dragon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't discussed how the Dragon would be prepared (he might not be the smartest in the world, but you don't survive that long without learning something).

Remember, per the DM guide, if an item is in a creatures treasure and they can use it, they probably will.

Even without magic, racid water thrown at a spell caster can blind as well as prevent speech, and a large creature can create a wave capablle of drenching a tiny creature. The dragon doesn't need to target a tiny creature either (he might be after an invisible creep who zapped him, not knowing it's after a druid).

Potions become useless around a Black Dragon, and well placed first level spells can hurt even the strongest monster (every PC has experienced this at one point or another).

Scrolls and wands require hands to use (making the druid a target)

I know this is just for a storyline, but if a player can plan ahead so an Intelligent creature.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is a very interesting thread.

I must say, I am inclined to give the victory to the druid. It isn't that the druid is more powerful than the dragon. In a one-on-one match up, the dragon would win hands-down. But what we're talking about is guerilla warfare on the druid's home turf. And that is a powerful advantage that most PC druids will never have.

Of course, the dragon could simply leave.

He could also attempt to spend some of his horde to hire a mercenary party to hunt down and kill whoever is attacking him. Though that would be difficult for him, since he doesn't yet have the ability to change shape in any way.

 

[Darklone]

I don't really agree that it's the druids home turf... the dragon lives there

And a submerged dragon is not that easy to find especially in case he's been already attacked once. He's more likely to return a few hours later to kill the druid at night. And just how does the druid know where to find the dragon or his lair/hoard?

I do think that the druid with some preparation can take the dragon out in melee (how mad that may sound) but for me getting close is the problem (as shown above, usually the dragon will notice the druid first). The dragon will either attack by surprise or keep his distance (you don't even need Int 12 for these simple tactics).

Wall of Thorns was IIRC mentioned in one of the first posts...

Don't we have some BADD tactics here for that dragon?

 

[two]

Wall of Thorns

Yup. Looks like wall of thorns should win it for the druid. Just looked it over. Pretty solid!

Can be cast at 200'. So save, no SR. Dismissable. The dragon's only defense is to get airborne before it goes off.

As long as the druid can figure out where the dragon IS via talking with animals, scouting, flying, swimming, etc. the dragon is gonna be unhappy.

If the dragon somehow spots a small shapechanged Druid at 200' or approaching, roll initiative. If the dragon wins he can run away. If he looses, he does something which does not kill the druid in one round. Druid casts Wall of Thorns if the dragon is still on the ground. If the dragon is airborne, uses tree stride to escape. Comes back next day. Repeat.

(I don't see how the dragon can hope to track the druid).

At some point very soon, unless the dragon managed to hide himself away, Wall of Thorns will hit him. Then the druid can do whatever he wants while the dragon fights its way out of the thorns, summon animals, "ready" a polymorph, call lightning, whatever. Repeat a few days in a row if needed.

This is absolutley PLENTY for a backstory.

 

[Derren]

You forget that there are other ways to escape a WoT. A mouthfull of acid (or a 3w10 lightning bolt) and there is a nice hole in the wall.

 

[two]

You forget that there are other ways to escape a WoT. A mouthfull of acid (or a 3w10 lightning bolt) and there is a nice hole in the wall.

Well, you can also read the spell. "magical fire burns away the wall in 10 minutes."

I'd certainly allow the dragon's breath weapon to have an effect. Just not an immediate one.

I mean c'mon. The druid just needs 1-2 rounds here. Wall of Thorns. Dragon is trapped and breathes. Druid moves closer. Dragons struggles out of thorns. Druid casts polymorph. Dragon makes save. Dragon moves and attacks Druid. Druid goes into tree and gets out of dodge.

That's insanely generous to the dragon, allowing it to get out of the 5th level spell in 1 round after breathing upon it.

And even then, it's plenty of time for the druid to get a spell off and run away.

With a more strict interpretation, the dragon might take 5 rounds or more to get out, giving the Druid 2-3 chances to lob spells.

After all, if the dragon had fire breath, it would take 10 minutes to burn out! Is acid that much more useful than fire?

Again, the druid just needs ONE save-or-be-screwed spell opportunity per day. Then, repeat until it works.

 

[Derren]

If the druid has a second chance.

Unless he can cast tree stride two times he has to be near hte dragon to attack it every day. And the dragon will prepare for the druid, or hunt him. Sure the dragon can't track the druid but it can search him and dragons have a very good spot check.
And if the dragon doesn't fight the druid the dragon can make sure that he sees the druid coming the next time, destroying all plant life arround his lake and sleeping underwater.

Also you just need a strength check of 20 to move in the wall, something a adult black dragon can make.

 

[Darklone]

What happens if the dragon charges from 200ft? He'd be right next to the druid who may cast wall of thorns... with himself inside it as well?

Don't think that would be healthy

Okok, 5ft step helps

 

[two]

If the druid has a second chance.

Unless he can cast tree stride two times he has to be near hte dragon to attack it every day. And the dragon will prepare for the druid, or hunt him. Sure the dragon can't track the druid but it can search him and dragons have a very good spot check.
And if the dragon doesn't fight the druid the dragon can make sure that he sees the druid coming the next time, destroying all plant life arround his lake and sleeping underwater.

Also you just need a strength check of 20 to move in the wall, something a adult black dragon can make.

Not to be snippy, but http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 is a wonderful resource. It's difficult to discuss Druid options when Druid spells are not well understood.

Tree Stride is cast once, and lasts 10 hours, and is good for 10 tree "hops." Freedom of Movement is cast once, and lasts 100 minutes. Shapeshift. Ok buffs done.

Approach Dragon.

If spotted by the dragon, either tree stride to another location nearby or far away. If dragon charges, jump into a tree and run away. The dragon can't grapple you because of FOM. The dragon can't kill the druid in one round, nor prevent the druid from escaping. That's the key.

If not spotted, cast Wall of Thorns. Get a round or two, minimum, to follow up with spells before the dragon breaks free.

If the dragon decides to sleep at the bottom of a lake, great. Attack it with giant crocodiles at some point in the night. Or just wait for it to come out. Whatever. It can't stay underwater all day and night. And the druid can have fun with underwater summons.

If the dragon razes the land, and settles himself in the middle of a bare 200' circle... Wonderful. The dragon is asking for lightning bolt, and will get it via "Call Lightning Storm," range is 800 feet for the little birdy in the sky. Plenty of line-of-sight after all.

The basic deal is, yes, the druid can kill a dragon unless the dragon simply leaves. The dragon can't track the druid nor ambush it reliably (not a dragon's forte, after all).

My money is on the druid, after all, the druid heals fast, has many spells, and has time on his side.

I don't like disposable dragons, and I also don't like immortal dragons. If a dragon chooses to stick around in a place where he is going to be whittled down day after day, or forced to make fort saves vs. polymorph, the dragon gets what the dragon deserves.